Joined: May '09
Location: Denmark
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 191
Hello everyone
I recently made a very questionable play. I am sure some people think it was crazy, but I would like to know if you would have called it rather than commenting the play itself (although constructive criticism is welcome).
We are four players left in a 9-man (10 dollar) SNG. We all have almost the same size of stack. As I remember it though I and player "A" were a bit deeper than "B" and "C".
I am in the Big blind and hold 82 diamonds. Blinds are 100/200. (I think my stack was around 4900 and his 5200).
"B" and "C" both folds and the small blind just calls. Personally I do not like limpers and I tend to raise them in these situations, however this is the first time on that table. I raise up to 600.
He calls my raise and the flop shows Jh 5d 9d.
He checks and I raise him 800 in a pot of 1200. He calls.
Turn shows Qs.
He raises 600 in a pot of 2800 - I call since it is such a low bet and I still have a flusdraw.
River shows As.
He checks and I decide to go all-in with 2900 in a pot of 4000. After some serious thinking he decides to call with two pairs Queens and fives.
Now I am not saying my play was the right against this opponent, but I do believe against a "better" player I might would have gotten away with it. Remember we are on the bubble and if he had paid any attention to me so far he would know I had been very tight. But I guess he probably labelled me a huge donk in his notes after that play.
My play probably would have been more correct in a multitable tournament, but I am curious if some of you better players like or dislike this play? Considering the board I think there was plenty of potential hands that could have beaten Q5. Even though he was covered it wasn't with more than 300 so in theory he had his SNG-life on the line as well.
What do you think of it? (please don't be to hard on me )
Joined: Jan '09
Location: New Zealand
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 463
Why bluff at the bubble, doesn't matter whether you're in a MTT or SnG.. If he calls your cbet, and raises first on turn.. its most likely he wasn't going to fold the river. To me tit simply isn't profitable especially if your tourney/Sng life is on the line to do so. You guys seem pretty deep too so no reason to donk off the rest of the stack on a 8 high for you. Your hand basically had no showdown value even if it gets called.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Well, punish the limp-guy, so with any 2 cards raise it when he limped too ur BB isnot bad play, i prefer in this situation to raise it with any 2 wud done the same.
Postflop? Well, going to work now so have to comment later
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
With two pair it is an easy call for him at the river. Preflop it is standard play, but with just a tiny flushdraw you should not be to exited on later streets.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Ireland
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 360
Yes I would have 100% definitely called with two pair there. You said he took some time to think about it, which I can only presume was because he was multi-tabling. I don't think he could ever have considered folding that hand really. He could have just been inviting the bluff with the river check.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
I agree with those above. Even if he thinks there is a chance he is beaten, he is definitely calling the river. The only hands that you could realistically have to beat him are A9 or A5. With his weak turn bet, I'm sure he would expect AJ or AQ to raise. If you had made a straight you would definitely raise, or at least I hope you would. You wouldn't want to give him a cheap chance to catch up with you, make a full house or higher straight. You could represent pretty well a missed flush with an Ace so that is definitely not a bad call.
As for the bluff, well you didn't know he had two pair. I wouldn't have put him on that with the turn bet but I think you have to let go of this hand. There are a lot of hands he could call with since your push all in does look like a missed draw- weak call on the turn is weaker than his bet, saying you haven't hit your hand yet and it doesn't look like you want the call on the river,
I would have called with the two pair without a doubt. He did show some strength when he bet out after calling your raises. He could of checked in hopes to check raise you, or he could of just checked to hoping to win a showdown in case he was beat. He could of been multi tabling or maybe the river card made him think for a sec.
Never bluff in the bubble zone if you don't have a bigger stack and are you trying to bust short opponents. In this situation you didn't play well ( as you too said ) but oppo didn't play wall too. I should call whole hand Battlefish Galactica Just for kidding, of course
If you're gonna bluff, do it well. Your preflopraise should be an allin, learn how to play, horrible, horrible play after flop. 2 Diamonds on flop=allin.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Singapore
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 225
]Posted by NANACONDA: Yes I would have 100% definitely called with two pair there. You said he took some time to think /about it, which I can only presume was because he was multi-tabling. I don't think he could ever have considered folding that hand really. He could have just been inviting the bluff with the river. check.
yeap if you wan to bluff do it the right way.. hehehe guess the rest of it already said by the aboves..
Joined: Aug '09
Location: Chile
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1353
I don't like your play. You had a really nice stack, the blinds were not too high. In a S&G you should play reallyn tight until the push and fold phase comes. If you know weel the ICM model you should take advantage from this and try to avoid this situation where these mistakes are painfull.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
i think it was bad play from both of you, your opponent is callin with a weak mid pair on flop and when he hits a two pair he doesn't bet as he shud have, but its an easy call for him at river. you shouldn't have bluffed at bubble with such a weak hand
Posted by SuperNoob: i think it was bad play from both of you, your opponent is callin with a weak mid pair on flop and when he hits a two pair he doesn't bet as he shud have, but its an easy call for him at river. you shouldn't have bluffed at bubble with such a weak hand
He does bet on the turn, but way too little, so either he wants a reraise from the other player, or he is just a really bad player, he could have checked but then he would be giving away a free card and a 'scared bet' often gets the same result (esp. with aggressive players), and because the trap didn't work he checked the river hoping the other player would valuebet his hand or bluff at the pot, then the other player shoves, so maybe he's thinking about a set because of the preflopraise or K10 or AJ (because he's a good player) but then knows he cannot fold his hand (again, because he's a good player) and decides to call. So, he's either a genius player and he outplayed our friend from Denmark or he's a very, very, very bad player.
Ps. the call on the flop is legit, he can always fold to a bigger bet on the turn.
Joined: Feb '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 703
I don t see any need to mess around the chip leader at that point of the SNG. U had a crappy hand and I don t think trying to steal with it was a nice move. I believe that ur move would have work perfectly against a shorter stack cuz every1 tights up at the bubble. Remember that if u always go allin against a shorter than u will never be kicked out of a tourney
Joined: May '09
Location: Denmark
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 191
Well I would like to thank your all for your insights. It is definitly noted and I will use it in order to improve my game.
I totally disagree that there is no difference between doing this in a SNG or MTT. SNG is unfortunately known as a "tight-ass" game, which is exactly why I acknowledge everybodys opinion that I made a mistake on the river. However those who questions aggressive play around the bubble is in my opinion wrong. People is often more tight on the bubble because for many it is very important to secure "return of the buy-in plus a little more". I myself play MTT for top 5 prizes and nothing less. But this is of course only my opinion.
I would however like to explain my decision a little further by analyzing the hand from each of us.
Remember I have been tight so far, which means in "A"s view my preflopraise at least indicate some kind of playable hand. (of course all of us know that in fact my hand was very weak preflop).
So what kind of hand is weak enough to only limp with it though strong enough to call a raise with.
Considering his call on my c-bet on the board Jh 9d 5d, I put him on something like 10,8 or Q10. There is also the possibility that he holds to diamonds, but because I have two diamonds myself the chances are there but for now I would calculate it unlikely. I don't see him hold a five or a jack because of two reasons. Callling a preflop raise from a presumable tight player with a 5 in his hand would be a mistake (at least in my opinion) - a very good player could do it with small connectors like 45 or 56 but I consider "A" an average player on 10 dollar SNG. Not the best, but not the worst either. If he should in fact hold a J - lets say J8 he should reraise me in order to close the pot down as fast as possible, because of flush and straightdraw possibilitys. Now there is one particular hand he might slowplay even though it would be bold and dangerous because of the draws. That hand is J9. Again I find it unlikely he didn't reraise me so I decide to write that possiblity off too knowing that some players certainly could slowplay it. (of course we in fact know that he actually did have a 5) - but I am thinking he has a 9 or is on a draw.
The river shows Qs.
Now he suddenly bets 600 in a pot of 2800. A very strange bet considering he is giving me huge odds to call when you take implied odds into the calculation. This low bet makes me thinking he is on a straightdraw and I consider reraising here (perhaps once again people would shake their head of me for doing so ). With only a 9 he would probably check again with another overcard so I don't believe that option anymore. The low raise could as I believed be some kind of a "blockbet" to see the river cheap and maybe make his straight or flush (even though I am firmly believing he is on the straightdraw at this point.) If the queen gave him two pairs (which would be Q9 according to my analyze - but was in fact Q5 as we all know - yet I didn't at this point) the low raise would be a very bad move. A bet of around 1700 would be the correct decision, perhaps even larger. Now what about the possiblity that the Q made his straight? I know it is there but even with such a strong hand I believe the bet should be larger in order to avoid loosing to a potentially completed flush on the river.
The river shows an ace of spades. An incredible scarecard for him considering I raised preflop and he "only" has two pairs Q5. Now he decides to check and I see this as a sign of weakness or effort to control the pot, because he is now uncertain whether he has the best hand. So I decide to represent a hand which got much better with that ace. I don't believe I can make a move at the pot without going all-in so I decide to do that. At the end of the hand I conclude he probably have Q10 and missed his straight and only holds a pair of queens. He could also have had two diamonds on his hand missing his flushdraw.
Now let us investigate the hand from the reversed situation. A tight player raises on the BB and "A" press the wrong button and call this raise. Now he hit the bottom pair and the other guy (in fact me) raises 800 in a pot of 1200. "A" could be infront with that 5. What could the other guy have here. AJ, KJ, A9 are all plausible possibilitys. QJ is unlikely since "A" has a Q himself yet not impossible. 99, JJ, 55 on the other hand is probably very unlikely because slowplaying these hands would be the obvious choice here. Besides 55 is even more of a "ghosthand" because "A" holds a five himself. There are also both flush and straightdraw possibilitys and of course it could also simply be a c-bet with "nothing". "A" calls despite he is out of position and therefore not in a good position to steal the pot because most cards on the turn would force him to check once again. But he gets lucky and make two pairs yet there now could be a completed straight.Instead of showing courage "A" decides to bet 600 almost forcing the other player (me) to call unless I am absolutely blank (I have a flushdraw - of course I had to call). Now "A" really didn't get much information on my hand here because his raise was so low. However it is now unlikely from his point of view that I already have a straight, because I didn't reraised. However I could still be on several draw possiblities. And that Ace of spades very well could have completed a hand that now beats "A".
From "A"'s point of view my potential hands could be: A9, AJ (actually the fact that I didn't reraise him on turn because of the fear of the Q makes it very likely I indeed could have had a jack). K10 are another option. Good enough to raise with preflop and to some extent explainable on every step in the hand. Although propably a mistake not to reraise him on turn. AQ on the other hand is very unlikely because I didn't reraise him on the turn. The last option is a missed flushdraw.
Now if I made a mistake on the river, he made several mistakes during the hand. 1. getting involved with Q5 against a presumable tight player. 2. a marginal call on the flop, because he is out of position 3. making a ridiculous low raise on the turn with so many drawpossibilitys 4. And to be honest I believe he is beaten more often than not by calling with Q5. Would I, a presumable tight player, really risk his SNG life on an all-in bet after the river? (apparently I did, but I see nothing that could indicate just that in that SNG) - Of course you don't know how I played up until that hand, but I would say tight. I hit some good cards and got paid of. Thats why I was second in stack and not because of several "donkmoves" that might would have justified his call on the river.
Now I will admit risking my SNG-life was a mistake, but I do not agree with those of you who are so certain to call with his Q5. But of course you are all entitled to your opinion as well as I am.
)
). With only a 9 he would probably check again with another overcard so I don't believe that option anymore. The low raise could as I believed be some kind of a "blockbet" to see the river cheap and maybe make his straight or flush (even though I am firmly believing he is on the straightdraw at this point.) If the queen gave him two pairs (which would be Q9 according to my analyze - but was in fact Q5 as we all know - yet I didn't at this point) the low raise would be a very bad move. A bet of around 1700 would be the correct decision, perhaps even larger. Now what about the possiblity that the Q made his straight? I know it is there but even with such a strong hand I believe the bet should be larger in order to avoid loosing to a potentially completed flush on the river.
