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I know - but if you remembered well - so many players suggested that he is a bot... This is why PS check him...

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Posted by retribution:
Posted by Mysik86:
I remember situation a few years ago, when PokerStars checked player rs03rs03 who played a LOT of games. He was use the series of self-made hotkeys.

This show, that is very difficult to find bot.


Hot keys aren't botting. Botting is when the play is completely scripted, removing any and all human play completely.

There's a HUGE difference between using a bot, and just hotkeying common actions. A lot of mass tablers use hotkeys, as it'd be too hard to keep everything sorted out if they had to rely on the mouse. I even heard of someone that used an xbox controller instead of a keyboard and mouse.

I know - but if you remembered well - so many players suggested that he is a bot... This is why PS check him...

     
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by ayaraled:
I have read some articles about bot and they are quite good...one story was that he makes money from zero to hero using a bot and now he is continuing to withdraw money while the bot is playing for him....is that really true?pokersites do regulate this bot thing right?or maybe they do not?or maybe they dont care?


It's quite possibly true - IMHO there is two ways to make money from a bot:

1) Make a bot and sell it online :

* Will eventually (quickly) be known to the poker site(s) and you will be quickly suspended for use
* Will profit the creator because people will continue to purchase the bot
* Bot installation could also include malware / spyware /etc which may also profit creator
* Creator could even include poker-specific spyware - where hole card information, account user/name password information, etc was returned to bot-creator.

2) Make a good bot and never share it with anyone

* Keep your bot unknown and thus a LOT harder for sites to trace
* Be smart - keep ahead of the poker sites, find out how they're tracking bots (possibly by reverse-engineering the client software) and keep at least 1 step ahead
* Never get to greedy ; make sure your bot takes breaks and makes mistakes to appear more human.

Thanks jess....i think i will not use any bot....I like to learn the game and be a winning player.....maybe not yet now but later maybe...... Big Smile .....but really sure thing bot willl be very useful if am playing long hours....hahahah.....joke.....poker is for people who loves the game.....

     
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Posted by Arithmajik:
Lol at Sadamman, I don't always cheat in GTA.

Totally agree with you, I'd rather play against bots than 8 players with huds, and me with no hud. To date I haven't tried one (mostly because I'm cheap and don't know how to use one effectively, although I have been wondering if I should do so to get a higher ROI).

Also I think your analogy of live play is bang on.

Retribution, the reason I agree with him is because say you made a little calculator to accurately collect info on those you've played against live, do you think a casino would let you use one? Absolutely not. Any edge that goes beyond human capability, I'm against. As long as one person uses the tech, everyone has too. Once everyone does, they're all on a level playing field again anyhow except the company who made the software is getting a share of all of their profits. It's an arms race, and the players loose.

I might be a little more lenient if a player coded it himself however, just because I'd feel like they cleverly earned the edge, but that's just cause I appreciate that kind of problem solving.


Actually most, if not all, casinos/cardrooms DO allow you to keep notes on a small pad of paper, providing you do not show it to anyone else at the table and it doesn't slow down the game. So in theory, in a live setting, you LITERALLY could keep track of every hand and what each player does. This is exactly the same as what a HUD does.

Again, HUDS don't calculate hand/draw odds, or provide any other information other than what each players actions are, and compiles it into numbers. It's solely your job to interpret those numbers. Remember, just because your heads up on a wet board with someone who's 36/13 doesn't mean their bluffing ALL the time.

     
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acctually i would like to know exactly what these huds say about me and my game play. guessing if somone told me my stats i could use that info to improve my game. one thing is i never show my cards ever anymore. just cause i know for the sake of showing somone they made a good fold other players ae gatheing that info to use against me. that why they make me paranoid, a kind of big brother syndrome.

     
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Posted by takingdrugs:
acctually i would like to know exactly what these huds say about me and my game play. guessing if somone told me my stats i could use that info to improve my game. one thing is i never show my cards ever anymore. just cause i know for the sake of showing somone they made a good fold other players ae gatheing that info to use against me. that why they make me paranoid, a kind of big brother syndrome.


All HUDS show is basic stats, like:

Vpip - How often you voluntarily put money in the pot.
PFR - How often you raise pre-flop.
3-bet % - How often you 3-bet pre/post flop.

There's a lot to consider, when figuring out what sort of a profile these numbers create for a particular player. A player with a VPIP of 30 and a PFR of 9 typically indicates someone who's overly loose and aggressive for example. But you can't always assume that these numbers are completely accurate, as it takes at least 100 hands against that player before you can assume they are close to realistic.

I just upgraded to PT4 Beta, and FINALLY have my HUD working for zoom. I've noted this time, so now I will play exclusively with the HUD for around 40k hands, to see if it "affects" my win rate any. Currently sitting at 2.9 BB/100 without, so I'll post my new stats once I hit that goal.

     
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Posted by retribution:
Posted by Arithmajik:
Lol at Sadamman, I don't always cheat in GTA.

Totally agree with you, I'd rather play against bots than 8 players with huds, and me with no hud. To date I haven't tried one (mostly because I'm cheap and don't know how to use one effectively, although I have been wondering if I should do so to get a higher ROI).

Also I think your analogy of live play is bang on.

Retribution, the reason I agree with him is because say you made a little calculator to accurately collect info on those you've played against live, do you think a casino would let you use one? Absolutely not. Any edge that goes beyond human capability, I'm against. As long as one person uses the tech, everyone has too. Once everyone does, they're all on a level playing field again anyhow except the company who made the software is getting a share of all of their profits. It's an arms race, and the players loose.

I might be a little more lenient if a player coded it himself however, just because I'd feel like they cleverly earned the edge, but that's just cause I appreciate that kind of problem solving.


Actually most, if not all, casinos/cardrooms DO allow you to keep notes on a small pad of paper, providing you do not show it to anyone else at the table and it doesn't slow down the game. So in theory, in a live setting, you LITERALLY could keep track of every hand and what each player does. This is exactly the same as what a HUD does.

Again, HUDS don't calculate hand/draw odds, or provide any other information other than what each players actions are, and compiles it into numbers. It's solely your job to interpret those numbers. Remember, just because your heads up on a wet board with someone who's 36/13 doesn't mean their bluffing ALL the time.



I don't think anyone could reasonably record all the data accurately on a note pad let alone crunch and update the numbers without delaying live play. Surely you must agree that a hud collects and computes more info than a human player could.

     
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Posted by Arithmajik:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by Arithmajik:
Lol at Sadamman, I don't always cheat in GTA.

Totally agree with you, I'd rather play against bots than 8 players with huds, and me with no hud. To date I haven't tried one (mostly because I'm cheap and don't know how to use one effectively, although I have been wondering if I should do so to get a higher ROI).

Also I think your analogy of live play is bang on.

Retribution, the reason I agree with him is because say you made a little calculator to accurately collect info on those you've played against live, do you think a casino would let you use one? Absolutely not. Any edge that goes beyond human capability, I'm against. As long as one person uses the tech, everyone has too. Once everyone does, they're all on a level playing field again anyhow except the company who made the software is getting a share of all of their profits. It's an arms race, and the players loose.

I might be a little more lenient if a player coded it himself however, just because I'd feel like they cleverly earned the edge, but that's just cause I appreciate that kind of problem solving.


Actually most, if not all, casinos/cardrooms DO allow you to keep notes on a small pad of paper, providing you do not show it to anyone else at the table and it doesn't slow down the game. So in theory, in a live setting, you LITERALLY could keep track of every hand and what each player does. This is exactly the same as what a HUD does.

Again, HUDS don't calculate hand/draw odds, or provide any other information other than what each players actions are, and compiles it into numbers. It's solely your job to interpret those numbers. Remember, just because your heads up on a wet board with someone who's 36/13 doesn't mean their bluffing ALL the time.



I don't think anyone could reasonably record all the data accurately on a note pad let alone crunch and update the numbers without delaying live play. Surely you must agree that a hud collects and computes more info than a human player could.


Of course they do, computers are basically just giant calculators. However that's not the point, the point is that HUD'S don't display any extra info other than what any other player is given.

Poker pros can calculate pot and draw odds on the spot, and notice "tells" and tendencies/patterns players have in live games.

Does that make it unfair for anyone who sits with them, that may not be able to do the same?

Does that mean pros shouldn't be allowed to utilize information they gain from playing with that player?

Does that mean pros shouldn't be allowed to use their knowledge of pot and draw odds/implied odds?


     
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Poker pros are also human and make mistakes. Computers don't, so although you're right in some senses there you're also wrong.

     
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Computers also make mistakes too.
Havent you ever got that freaking ERROR sign pissing you off trying to find
out what it is and how you can fix it? Smile
If i had the money to spare i would have smashed a few computers after getting this Smile
cause in many cases the only way to resolve this is by reinstalling windows.

     
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That's not really a mistake in a computers flawless computing ability. What you're saying sounds like a virus. Have you been looking at porn? Tongue Shock

     
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Posted by Mober:
Computers also make mistakes too.
Havent you ever got that freaking ERROR sign pissing you off trying to find
out what it is and how you can fix it? Smile
If i had the money to spare i would have smashed a few computers after getting this Smile
cause in many cases the only way to resolve this is by reinstalling windows.


Yeah sounds more like to much porn searching....

Dont be ashamed we all been there..

     
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Im not talking about the computing ability Smile but all those red X errors you are getting
either from windows programs or others that have installed or upgraded recently.

And if its from an add on program its easy to uninstall and install again most of the times.
If you are unlucky and its a windows one, sometimes only solution is reinstalling.
And i know this pretty well cause im still running Windows XP Smile

     
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On topic:

Who cares about bot, bots are too easy, so EV+ , i wud luv to play only bots Worship

     
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Posted by doomdy:
On topic:

Who cares about bot, bots are too easy, so EV+ , i wud luv to play only bots Worship

Doom, What should be the strategy if you think your playing against a bot?super aggressive or tight aggressive?how about passive play? Question

     
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Posted by ayaraled:
Posted by doomdy:
On topic:

Who cares about bot, bots are too easy, so EV+ , i wud luv to play only bots Worship

Doom, What should be the strategy if you think your playing against a bot?super aggressive or tight aggressive?how about passive play? Question


My best bet would be aggressive. I would wager the easiest way to program a bot would be TAG - this would require the least amount of "AI" - and hence the cliche when people are mass-multitabling playing TAG often refer to that as their own 'robot-play'. The best way to combat TAG play is with LAG - basically steal often, but don't pay off their big hands, just take down lots of small pots.

     
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by ayaraled:
Posted by doomdy:
On topic:

Who cares about bot, bots are too easy, so EV+ , i wud luv to play only bots Worship

Doom, What should be the strategy if you think your playing against a bot?super aggressive or tight aggressive?how about passive play? Question


My best bet would be aggressive. I would wager the easiest way to program a bot would be TAG - this would require the least amount of "AI" - and hence the cliche when people are mass-multitabling playing TAG often refer to that as their own 'robot-play'. The best way to combat TAG play is with LAG - basically steal often, but don't pay off their big hands, just take down lots of small pots.


This makes me wonder, just how many of the short stackers you see in 9max NLHE are actually botters. I think that a shortstack bot would be the easiest of all in terms of programming, because there's such a structured set of rules when it comes to short stack strategy. Did some research on SSS back awhile ago, and the ranges are pretty much top 3-5% played uber aggressive. Not hard to adjust to someone at the table like that though, but it's certainly frustrating when they 3-bet your UTG/MP raises, since you lose so much equity due to their lack of blinds.

     
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I meant SNG bots, they are programmed like Jess said to play TAG and with ICM.
Knowing this it must be quitte easy to exploit.

     
   0   
Posted by retribution:
Posted by Arithmajik:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by Arithmajik:
Lol at Sadamman, I don't always cheat in GTA.

Totally agree with you, I'd rather play against bots than 8 players with huds, and me with no hud. To date I haven't tried one (mostly because I'm cheap and don't know how to use one effectively, although I have been wondering if I should do so to get a higher ROI).

Also I think your analogy of live play is bang on.

Retribution, the reason I agree with him is because say you made a little calculator to accurately collect info on those you've played against live, do you think a casino would let you use one? Absolutely not. Any edge that goes beyond human capability, I'm against. As long as one person uses the tech, everyone has too. Once everyone does, they're all on a level playing field again anyhow except the company who made the software is getting a share of all of their profits. It's an arms race, and the players loose.

I might be a little more lenient if a player coded it himself however, just because I'd feel like they cleverly earned the edge, but that's just cause I appreciate that kind of problem solving.


Actually most, if not all, casinos/cardrooms DO allow you to keep notes on a small pad of paper, providing you do not show it to anyone else at the table and it doesn't slow down the game. So in theory, in a live setting, you LITERALLY could keep track of every hand and what each player does. This is exactly the same as what a HUD does.

Again, HUDS don't calculate hand/draw odds, or provide any other information other than what each players actions are, and compiles it into numbers. It's solely your job to interpret those numbers. Remember, just because your heads up on a wet board with someone who's 36/13 doesn't mean their bluffing ALL the time.



I don't think anyone could reasonably record all the data accurately on a note pad let alone crunch and update the numbers without delaying live play. Surely you must agree that a hud collects and computes more info than a human player could.


Of course they do, computers are basically just giant calculators. However that's not the point, the point is that HUD'S don't display any extra info other than what any other player is given.

Poker pros can calculate pot and draw odds on the spot, and notice "tells" and tendencies/patterns players have in live games.

Does that make it unfair for anyone who sits with them, that may not be able to do the same?

Does that mean pros shouldn't be allowed to utilize information they gain from playing with that player?

Does that mean pros shouldn't be allowed to use their knowledge of pot and draw odds/implied odds?




If you agree that a HUD can collect, compute, and display far more information than a human player than you must also agree HUD's do display info that isn't available to players without them. Anyone at your table without a HUD has less info or at the very least less accurate info, which is an edge that you earned by buying a program.

Let me ask you this, would you sit down and play at a table where everyone but you had a HUD?

     
   0   
No matter what, any player that uses a HUD has an advantage against one that doesnt.

Even if you keep collecting info for every player you come against during your
play, its impossible to collect all his data and history hands, from the day he started
playing under that nick.

So no matter how close you "watch" a player and his style you will always lack
in comparison with what you get for him, from a HUD

     
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Also just figured I should say, not saying it's bad to use a HUD, I'm not questioning your skill or ethics in any way Retiribution. It makes sense for you to want to make sure no one has an edge on you. I just wish HUD's were never invented, so I didn't have to buy in to negate others edges against me.

Also I'd rather play a table full of bots than a table full of HUD's.

     
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