We both have 100bb preflop at 0.05/0.10 6max omaha hi Im dealt Q789 suited once Q high in diamonds. I raise. get reraised by the BB and flat call. Flop comes 57Q one diamond. Im pretty happy flopping top two and when he checks to me I protect my hand and bet out 3/4 pot. He flat calls. Turn Comes the 6 of diamonds. I now have top two. The nut straight and the third nut flush draw. i bet again, he calls pot comes to $11 and i have $4 more behind me. Im calling practically any river. The river comes the 2 of diamonds giving me the 3rd nut Flush. He checks. I ponder and then put the last $4 in. He calls and turns over KKTx with KT of diamonds.
I still cant see how he checked the river to me when he runner runnered the 2nd nuts and i was so commited to the pot. And because of that i cant see how my bet was wrong in any way. To not fire would of lost me some serious chips from any other number of hands i had beat. Maybe he had two pair or a set and wouldnt be able to lay it down for so cheap. Left me fuming cause i felt he played it so bad on the river.
Second hand im sitting with 2244 suited once in the BB. one raiser 2 callers to 3 bb. I almost drop the hand preflop but i felt it was worth 2 bb more. flop comes JJ2. This is about as good as i can ask for. However when it is 4 way i know a J is calling and they have 10 outs on the flop and turn and i have no idea when i go behind. So i act first and check and intend to call a bet and reevaluate the turn. intend to check call flop and turn and maybe bet the river depending on action. The turn comes a 4. This is one of the few safe cards in the deck for me knowing that there is only one 2 and one 4 and to have one of the last 2 J's and a 2 or 4 is statistically unlikely and doesnt make for a good hand make up. I Lead out happily. A short stack who had 40 bb entering the pot reraised me and left himself with just less than 10bb in his stack. With one card to come and knowing i had the best of it i put him all in. The turn comes the J. I could of completly understood any of his other cards giving him the full but the J just really rubbed it in.
Second hand is just me grumbling. The river has not been nice to me lately. The first hand i want to hear opinions on. Do you check the river with the 3rd nut flush that you runner runnered against an opponent who has checked to you 3 streets in a row after a preflop reraise.
My opinion for first hand is that you played it really well and could not do nothing about it, you clearly did not have one of the best starting hand in omaha preflop but you had a decent flop for sure. So you had to keep betting to protect for sure.
What made the guy calling you after the flop that he had either put you on the straight draw or simply on a hand like AKQJ where he would have still be ahead if it was the case... No need to say why he called the turn... etc...
What do you think is worth a 3 bet call preflop in 6 max omaha?
I left out vital information but he reraised me to 90 cents. Im calling 60 cents into what will be a 1.85 pot and i have position with a nice wrap. Even against AAKJ suited twice one of the top very few omaha hands im at least 33% to win the hand and will likely only start putting in more money if i have outflopped him.
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Posted by shokaku: Second hand is brutal, but it is called omahahaha for a reason.
agree
as for the first hand - i think you played it alright post flop, but i probably wouldn't have called a re-raise with... althrough sometimes you have to be aggressive to take it...
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Slow down mate :- Your first hand is a no brainer... easy fold at any stage, you didnt have a good hand at any point and if you continue to play as you did then you'll go broke quick you didnt have top 2 pair you had top and bottom pair. So if they had a Q and 8 or 9 you was behind from the start. If they had 77 or 88 or 99 or QQ you was behind from the start If they had 10 J or 5 6 you was behind from the start. What he had at the end is really irelivent as you should have saved your cash for a better hand. Your hand pre flop can be played even if you have a tight tendance but only for the straight factor... staying in the pot with a draw thats not the nuts will be -EV If it was me id have raised as you did post flop but fold to the re-raise. You played that very badly all the way....sorry
------------ Is Omaha your game of choice? I have only got in to it recently but find it totaly wicked with sooo much more to look out for and work through as the hand progres's
I invite you to reread my thread as it seems you have misread it completly. I did have top two. You say easy fold at any point but the villain doesnt bet once. TJ and 56 are not ahead of me from the beggining. The only hands im worried about are 55, 77 and QQ. And someone who reraises is unlikely to have 55 or 77 and who honestly checks top set in a reraised pot.
i have Q789 on a Q57 board. Last time i looked thats top two.
You probably were just busy or something when you posted. Following my hand replay is not crystal clear.
Posted by xxxbchxxx: Slow down mate :- Your first hand is a no brainer... easy fold at any stage, you didnt have a good hand at any point and if you continue to play as you did then you'll go broke quick you didnt have top 2 pair you had top and bottom pair. So if they had a Q and 8 or 9 you was behind from the start. If they had 77 or 88 or 99 or QQ you was behind from the start If they had 10 J or 5 6 you was behind from the start. What he had at the end is really irelivent as you should have saved your cash for a better hand. Your hand pre flop can be played even if you have a tight tendance but only for the straight factor... staying in the pot with a draw thats not the nuts will be -EV If it was me id have raised as you did post flop but fold to the re-raise. You played that very badly all the way....sorry
------------ Is Omaha your game of choice? I have only got in to it recently but find it totaly wicked with sooo much more to look out for and work through as the hand progres's
He had top TWO pair.
But your points are still valid. You are behind to any set, and the hand was played badly from start to finish.
Secondly, of course with KK in his hole he is going to call any bet after the flop, and once hes hit the second nut flush draw on the turn hes going nowhere. There is no way he's dropping that hand. If the board pairs anything other than a Q or a 7 then his two pair beats your 2 pair anyway.
2 pair is not a good proposition in Omaha, and straight draws can be a brutal bankroll killer. The number of times I've hit a straight on the flop and lost to flushes and full houses is unreal.
The fact he kept checking and you were betting into him, suggests that you overvalued your hand, and you could in fact have got to the river for alot less than it actually cost you. You even admit that you are callling any river so the possiblitly of a higher flush draw was clearly not even on your radar. In short you just saw the flush and assumed you were good. Never a good assumption to make in Omaha.
I am afraid to say, that I agree with the poster above. you played this hand about as badly as you possibly could, and got caught with your hands in the cookie jar.
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Posted by SCDossett: I invite you to reread my thread as it seems you have misread it completly. I did have top two. You say easy fold at any point but the villain doesnt bet once. TJ and 56 are not ahead of me from the beggining. The only hands im worried about are 55, 77 and QQ. And someone who reraises is unlikely to have 55 or 77 and who honestly checks top set in a reraised pot.
i have Q789 on a Q57 board. Last time i looked thats top two.
You probably were just busy or something when you posted. Following my hand replay is not crystal clear.
I see my error and appoligise. easy fold was a bit silly to say. But stand to my original statment "What he had at the end is really irelivent as you should have saved your cash for a better hand." didnt the flat calls ring alarm bells? as you said any trips and your in a bad way.
No your hand replay is correct and i should have payed more attention to the detail.
But your points are still valid. You are behind to any set, and the hand was played badly from start to finish.
Secondly, of course with KK in his hole he is going to call any bet after the flop, and once hes hit the second nut flush draw on the turn hes going nowhere. There is no way he's dropping that hand. If the board pairs anything other than a Q or a 7 then his two pair beats your 2 pair anyway.
2 pair is not a good proposition in Omaha, and straight draws can be a brutal bankroll killer. The number of times I've hit a straight on the flop and lost to flushes and full houses is unreal.
The fact he kept checking and you were betting into him, suggests that you overvalued your hand, and you could in fact have got to the river for alot less than it actually cost you. You even admit that you are callling any river so the possiblitly of a higher flush draw was clearly not even on your radar. In short you just saw the flush and assumed you were good. Never a good assumption to make in Omaha.
I am afraid to say, that I agree with the poster above. you played this hand about as badly as you possibly could, and got caught with your hands in the cookie jar.
Being behind any set I do not think is a valid reason to not bet top two on a checked flop with position. If i play this tight i will let players draw out on me. If i had of stayed to the river with flopped top two and gotten reraised/the board pairs/an obvious draw hits then i think i can be faulted but im suprised that everyone is thinking i played the whole hand badly.
So you are suggesting that after he flat calls the flop and i turn the nut straight along with top two i should just check because a flush draw has been turned and he flat called the flop?
When the river flushed i was calling because of the pot odds. The fact that it would be a runner runner hand that I feel is almost impossible to lay down along with the fact that if he did in fact runner runner a flush he may be happy betting with something alot worse than the Q high. The reasoning goes a lot further than just the fact that "i didnt see it"
"If he pairs anything apart from a Q or 7 he has me beat" on the flop that leaves just the 5. I am not worried about 3 obvious outs. On the turn i have the nut straight. No card on the board pairing gives him a better hand.
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How long have you been playing Omaha? I'm curious as i am a novice and have i'd say limited experience of the game , but it has been a profitable time and i have fallen in love with the game. Your style seems to me (as a novice) quite loose. I'm not being funny or sarkastic at all but you seem to know what your talking about so i presume you have experience?
You are failing to see it from the other side of the coin, and thats why its badly played.
Look at it from the position that your opponent is in, then you see why its actually him that plays the hand well.
Firstly hes raised you out of position. Alarm bells should be ringing there...
You seriously called a raise from an out of position player with Q789.. THat alone is a mistake that justifies you losing the pot. You went in with a bad hand to start with.
So the original raiser has done the right thing pre lop. Raised. ANd got called by someone calling with a weak hand.
Plius point to him.. negative point to you.
After the flop he knows hes got an overpair but recognises that hes not all that strong. Theres still stuff out there that could beat him. So he checks to find out where he is in the hand. Notice he doesnt go throwing in wild bets to take the pot with his average hoiding. You however go firing bullets when by your own admission you could well have been behind with any set.
plus point to him, negative point to you
The turn comes. His hand has improved. Hes picked up a flush draw. Note he still isnt firing bullets. His hand is still weak but has potential. Your hand likewise is weak but has potential However you are throwing in chips like confetti whilst again, admitting you could still be behind. Even with the second nuts flush draw, hes playing it tight. Not overcommitting himself. Look at the difference. You were being aggressive with your draws, he however was happy to keep the pot small and see how his hand develops.
Again plus point to him, negative point to you.
FInally you hit the flush. Hes now picked up his second nuts flush. One card in the deck will beat himn. By this time hes committed anyway, so why not give it a shot.
The bottom line is this. You played a very weak hand to start with. You were over aggressive when by your own admission you didnt have hte nuts, and after the flop you were hoping to hit a hand that wouldnt be the nuts even if you did hit it.....
Joined: Nov '08
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Here's an extract from one of my "Omaha Stratergy Guide" STRONG FLUSHDRAW
As Jh 10h 9s FLOP Qc 7s 3s
You have the nut flush draw with 8 clean outs to the nuts (every spade except the Qs). This hand has very high value multi-way, especially because you do not have the K or Q of spades. This means that an opponent with the second or third nut flush will probably overplay it. A nut flush draw with A K T9 would be significantly weaker here, since no-one is drawing to the second nuts.
WEAK FLUSHDRAW
As Jh 10h 9s FLOP Qc 7h 3h
You have a bare J-high flush draw. If you hit your flush on the turn and someone bets, you will not know whether you have the best hand or whether you are drawing dead. Very often you will not get a single bet out of a worse hand. This draw also has very high reverse implied odds and almost no implied odds. Investing any money with this hand would be a mistake.
and for the record, you say that you couldnt put him on a set after the flop.
Turn it around..
What did he think YOU had.
If you couldnt see him having a set, likewise he wouldnt think you had one. And given its very unlikely someone would be stupid enough to call a raise with a hand containing a Q and a 7 with no pairs or not being double suited, then he had every reason to believe he was ahead.
Also you fail to tell us what his other card was.. That other card could well have been something that would give him further outs as well.
Posted by fcumred: sorry mate, but you played it badly.
Theres no other way around it.
You are failing to see it from the other side of the coin, and thats why its badly played.
Look at it from the position that your opponent is in, then you see why its actually him that plays the hand well.
Firstly hes raised you out of position. Alarm bells should be ringing there...
You seriously called a raise from an out of position player with Q789.. THat alone is a mistake that justifies you losing the pot. You went in with a bad hand to start with.
So the original raiser has done the right thing pre lop. Raised. ANd got called by someone calling with a weak hand.
Plius point to him.. negative point to you.
After the flop he knows hes got an overpair but recognises that hes not all that strong. Theres still stuff out there that could beat him. So he checks to find out where he is in the hand. Notice he doesnt go throwing in wild bets to take the pot with his average hoiding. You however go firing bullets when by your own admission you could well have been behind with any set.
plus point to him, negative point to you
The turn comes. His hand has improved. Hes picked up a flush draw. Note he still isnt firing bullets. His hand is still weak but has potential. Your hand likewise is weak but has potential However you are throwing in chips like confetti whilst again, admitting you could still be behind. Even with the second nuts flush draw, hes playing it tight. Not overcommitting himself. Look at the difference. You were being aggressive with your draws, he however was happy to keep the pot small and see how his hand develops.
Again plus point to him, negative point to you.
FInally you hit the flush. Hes now picked up his second nuts flush. One card in the deck will beat himn. By this time hes committed anyway, so why not give it a shot.
The bottom line is this. You played a very weak hand to start with. You were over aggressive when by your own admission you didnt have hte nuts, and after the flop you were hoping to hit a hand that wouldnt be the nuts even if you did hit it.....
Thats the all important point.
Preflop is arguable. I personally believe that to fold to 3 bets that often would be a leak that could be easily abused. This is a 6 max table an i know i will have position on the flop.
On the flop i have what i believe is the best hand at that point.
On the turn i know i have the best hand at that point. Being the Nut straight. NUT STRAIGHT! everyone appears to be missing this. If i honestly check here i think overall im losing money.
On the river an improbable card has come up and with the betting and stack sizes i assume he is more likely to have a moderate holding that calls the last bet just to see if i was telling the truth the whole way.
Everyones strategy appears to be only bet with the nuts. And only ever bet the nuts on the river. I dont see how that can be advisable. It does appear that i am the only player that wants to play this game where hands beneath the nuts are worth betting.
You say at the end what can i have from his point of view. I think there are key differences between our two hands. A hand that can raise and call a 3 bet can be wider than the hadn 3 betting itself. In Holdem i will raise suited connectors and given the right pot odds and position and deep enough stacks i will call a reraise with them. I will not reraise an early position raiser with 89 suited. Preflop my range is wider. So i can more legitimatly have 55 77 89. I bet the flop and turn. This shapes my holdings. He checks the flop and turn. I still dont see how you can say we were in identical situations
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Posted by xxxbchxxx: How long have you been playing Omaha? I'm curious as i am a novice and have i'd say limited experience of the game , but it has been a profitable time and i have fallen in love with the game. Your style seems to me (as a novice) quite loose. I'm not being funny or sarkastic at all but you seem to know what your talking about so i presume you have experience?
I wouldn't say i had massive experience. I do play every single type of poker and enjoy them all in there own ways apart from stud hi/lo. I like razz omaha hi/lo stud and even 5 card draw but i prefer shortdecked 5 card draw.
Most of my experience with omaha up until recently has been full ring at slightly higher limits on red kings. .25/.25 (i dont know why but they had equal small and bigblind) and with that i played quite a tight passive game. I didnt raise preflop at all because i found the players were equally likely to all call a raised flop as they were a limped flop. The second reason i wouldnt raise would be because I object to only raising AAxx and KKxx hands. If you are raising AAxx and KKxx i feel you have to raise other hands aswell things like 3456 or 7789 so that people cant dodge your sets so easily. lastly the tables were loose so i had no difficulty getting money in the middle when i wanted to.
When i went down to a smaller table i found that with many more heads up flops i was able to use agression to win pots that i may otherwise not. So instead of checking draws in position i started betting them at least on the flop to see if i could take it down there. How effective this has been is questionable. Over about 2000 hands i have gone up about $150 dollars and then come back down to roughly where i started. I partly feel that a lot of it has been bad rivers where 80% of the money has gone in while im a 70% favourite at least.
I still am surprised by the reaction to much of how i played this hand. I assumed most players would be betting the flop and turn. I left a note on this player to not bet the river without the nuts so i wouldnt make the same mistake voluntarily putting my money in with the worst hand again. However it still suprises me that the average value bet people think to make has to be the nuts
