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  7-Jul-10, 08:30   #21
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by Hajinnho:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by Hajinnho:
yeah and AA is fucked up anyway... i would rather eat this hand than playing it..:!


Do you mean you don't go all-in with rockets? Hmm... In cash ring games I do. Almost any time. But in tournies I can fold AA time to time!! You know that... when there are several positions to guaranteed prizes, you get airlines as hole cards, and 2 or more ppl before you go all-in. That suxxxx! And after folding Aces you can HAPPILY watch some dude catching the third 6 or 8 on the river and killing 2 guys with AK and JJ making you closer to money Big Smile


are you serious?? You'll fold AA pre-flop just to get in the money/? Terrible play

only time its acceptable to fold AA pre-flop is some bubble situations in DoNs or satellites where you basically have nothing to gain by calling.



thats it.. when i have 100.000 chips and there are some with only 4000 left and someone raises with 130.000 all in, there is no reason to call in a satellite


Bros, do you think my play is really terrible? Sad Notice: I was speaking about situation when 2 or 3 guys are all-in before me!! It means some of them has high pair, and possibly one or two have AKs!! It means I have a zero chance to cath the third ace. So I will be beaten by ANY 2 pairs using both hole cards, sets, straights and flushes... What is my chance to survive against 3 players in all-in?! it is definetely less than 50%!! So is it worthy to risk, if I have more than 50% chance to leave a tourney? Disagree

     
  7-Jul-10, 16:19   #22
  0   
theknight86 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Poland
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 22
Posted by oliver082298:
Posted by Olkool:
Aww crap!
Hand #9401162678 begins at 2010/07/05
Dealing down cards
Dealt to Leyo187 [As Ad]
anetteV posts the small blind of $0.05
SANPALERMO posts the big blind of $0.10
Maniak991 calls $0.10.
alex1112223 folds.
Niyaz10 folds.
mclau_poker raises to $0.30.
joske222 folds.
Beke1984 calls $0.30.
Leyo187 raises to $1.50.
anetteV folds.
SANPALERMO folds.
Maniak991 folds.
mclau_poker calls $1.20.
Beke1984 folds.
Dealing Flop [Jd 9d Ts]
mclau_poker checks.
Leyo187 bets $2.53.
mclau_poker raises to $10.97.
Leyo187 calls $5.82, and is all-in.
Dealing Turn King of diamonds
Dealing River Jack of hearts
mclau_poker shows [Js Ah]
mclau_poker has Three of a Kind, Jacks
mclau_poker wins $19.25


Ok ? I think PP is done for me ...
Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap! Aww crap!

hate the player not the game, AA's cracked sometimes Big Smile Big Smile



Just bad luck. It happens

     
  7-Jul-10, 19:09   #23
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by kinogomes:
If somebody is afraid to play AA, then that person should quit playing poker. I had a day losing 8 times with AA some of then agfainst crazy calling stations. Its really fked up lose AA but, its the best hand to play pre flop. Nobody shoulds be afraid to play it, in long run AA means vitory.


A few minutes ago supported 2 persons all-in with AA. I finished in 2 places from prizes.

Tell me please, which % of chance to win do you need at pre-flop to moove all-in? And what is you chance in percents against 2, 3, 4 players?

for sure i will ALWAYS play rockets agressively in cashgame. but tournament play is a very different thing.


     
  7-Jul-10, 21:51   #24
  0   
Hajinnho 

Joined: Jan '10
Location: Germany
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1379
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by Hajinnho:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by Hajinnho:
yeah and AA is fucked up anyway... i would rather eat this hand than playing it..:!


Do you mean you don't go all-in with rockets? Hmm... In cash ring games I do. Almost any time. But in tournies I can fold AA time to time!! You know that... when there are several positions to guaranteed prizes, you get airlines as hole cards, and 2 or more ppl before you go all-in. That suxxxx! And after folding Aces you can HAPPILY watch some dude catching the third 6 or 8 on the river and killing 2 guys with AK and JJ making you closer to money Big Smile


are you serious?? You'll fold AA pre-flop just to get in the money/? Terrible play

only time its acceptable to fold AA pre-flop is some bubble situations in DoNs or satellites where you basically have nothing to gain by calling.



thats it.. when i have 100.000 chips and there are some with only 4000 left and someone raises with 130.000 all in, there is no reason to call in a satellite


Bros, do you think my play is really terrible? Sad Notice: I was speaking about situation when 2 or 3 guys are all-in before me!! It means some of them has high pair, and possibly one or two have AKs!! It means I have a zero chance to cath the third ace. So I will be beaten by ANY 2 pairs using both hole cards, sets, straights and flushes... What is my chance to survive against 3 players in all-in?! it is definetely less than 50%!! So is it worthy to risk, if I have more than 50% chance to leave a tourney? Disagree



what do you want from me? I just agreed that you CAN fold aces preflop... But i would still just fold them at the bubble of a satellite. Otherwise in my eyes it is lost value.

     
  8-Jul-10, 01:30   #25
  0   
blazingpf 
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Singapore
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 225
]Posted by dule-vu:
its all about sistem and software so with every hand can happen everything,so nothing strange with. AA!like I posted video when guy got 4 of A and other player royal flush!so everything is possible!

Woah, thats pretty sad for the 4 A guy lol
Worship
the royal flush guy must be a lucky chap for sure

     
  8-Jul-10, 01:36   #26
  0   
arsenej1 

Joined: Mar '09
Location: Canada
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 3199
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS

     
  8-Jul-10, 02:49   #27
  0   
dule-vu 

Joined: May '09
Location: Croatia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 9326
Posted by blazingpf:
]Posted by dule-vu:
its all about sistem and software so with every hand can happen everything,so nothing strange with. AA!like I posted video when guy got 4 of A and other player royal flush!so everything is possible!

Woah, thats pretty sad for the 4 A guy lol
Worship
the royal flush guy must be a lucky chap for sure


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XunAlp2azhA
this is very sick hand and have to post again this video,that you can see!everything is posiblle and this live poker,not online....

     
  8-Jul-10, 09:11   #28
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.

     
  9-Jul-10, 21:50   #29
  0   
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 6482
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.

     
  10-Jul-10, 07:53   #30
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.


you know what? your words sound reasonable. and I begin to regret of all that Aces folded in MTTs. I'll force myself to call next time Blink

     
  10-Jul-10, 10:27   #31
  +1   
Hajinnho 

Joined: Jan '10
Location: Germany
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1379
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.


you know what? your words sound reasonable. and I begin to regret of all that Aces folded in MTTs. I'll force myself to call next time Blink


that´s what i talked of. In tournaments with paying structures i would call the aces. You might bust before the bubble (which mostly mean not more than the buy in (overlays excluded)), but you might aswell get the stack which is necessary to go REALLY deep.

Only in Sats it makes sense, because if 36 are itm, it doesnt matter if you are cumming in first or 27.

     
  10-Jul-10, 11:26   #32
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by Hajinnho:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.


you know what? your words sound reasonable. and I begin to regret of all that Aces folded in MTTs. I'll force myself to call next time Blink


that's what i talked of. In tournaments with paying structures i would call the aces. You might bust before the bubble (which mostly mean not more than the buy in (overlays excluded)), but you might aswell get the stack which is necessary to go REALLY deep.

Only in Sats it makes sense, because if 36 are itm, it doesnt matter if you are cumming in first or 27.


You are absolutely right. +1
I am sorry for reading your posts not attentively enough before. Now I caught your idea. Yes, you are 100% right with no doubt!

     
  10-Jul-10, 12:06   #33
  0   
Fackinas 
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 29 (F)
Posts: 1180
Posted by Kerdisas:
[

You are absolutely right. +1
I am sorry for reading your posts not attentively enough before. Now I caught your idea. Yes, you are 100% right with no doubt!

Agree 100%

     
  10-Jul-10, 12:40   #34
  -1   
Lesiu 
Joined: Jul '10
Location: Poland
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 6
AA is the best hand in game,but it can be beaten sometimes.

     
  10-Jul-10, 13:59   #35
  +1   
Joe_Average 

Joined: Dec '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 61 (M)
Posts: 735
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by Hajinnho:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.


you know what? your words sound reasonable. and I begin to regret of all that Aces folded in MTTs. I'll force myself to call next time Blink


that's what i talked of. In tournaments with paying structures i would call the aces. You might bust before the bubble (which mostly mean not more than the buy in (overlays excluded)), but you might aswell get the stack which is necessary to go REALLY deep.

Only in Sats it makes sense, because if 36 are itm, it doesnt matter if you are cumming in first or 27.


You are absolutely right. +1
I am sorry for reading your posts not attentively enough before. Now I caught your idea. Yes, you are 100% right with no doubt!

Sorry to make you doubt again maybe, but I DO sometimes fold AA when 3 or more players are allin before me. BUT it depends on stacksizes and table-image.
The first time I did, I would have lost to every player on the river Big Smile ,
but I DID win that live-tournament with a cool DFL 3.780,-
Another time folding my AA did get me to 2nd place for Eu 1.600,-

So think again Smile

     
  10-Jul-10, 16:49   #36
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by Joe_Average:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by Hajinnho:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Kerdisas:
Posted by arsenej1:
AA is only............AMAZING...aginst one opponent.. when 3-4 are invovled expect the guy with 6-4 to win.. THATS POKER FOLKS


ABLOSUTELY right! I am not sure of the percentage and don't have a statistics, but in 3-4 ppl all-ins there are not so much winnings with Aces.


You may be getting less than 50% vs more than 1 person, depending there holdings (although, AA, vs AK vs AK is still good). But whatever, you'll still ALWAYS be getting the odds to make the call.. The chip on on the times you win will be worth the times you lose in the long run..

There's a few ICM calculations on the bubble where it may be better to fold, but thats 99% in sat's and DoNs only.


you know what? your words sound reasonable. and I begin to regret of all that Aces folded in MTTs. I'll force myself to call next time Blink


that's what i talked of. In tournaments with paying structures i would call the aces. You might bust before the bubble (which mostly mean not more than the buy in (overlays excluded)), but you might aswell get the stack which is necessary to go REALLY deep.

Only in Sats it makes sense, because if 36 are itm, it doesnt matter if you are cumming in first or 27.


You are absolutely right. +1
I am sorry for reading your posts not attentively enough before. Now I caught your idea. Yes, you are 100% right with no doubt!

Sorry to make you doubt again maybe, but I DO sometimes fold AA when 3 or more players are allin before me. BUT it depends on stacksizes and table-image.
The first time I did, I would have lost to every player on the river Big Smile ,
but I DID win that live-tournament with a cool DFL 3.780,-
Another time folding my AA did get me to 2nd place for Eu 1.600,-

So think again Smile


I understand you well. My position now is the following:

In my everyday MTTs I will almost allways play rockets pre-flop. Just because even if the chance in 3-4 ppl all-in is not so big, but still the biggest from all of them. And on a long period of time Aces must bring profit.

BUT in tournies which I play seldom, for really money (big for me, not in general) I would definetely fold rockets and not support 3ppl all-in! Because such a tournie is almost "a tournie of my life" and there can not be any word spoken about a "long run" in such tournies.

     
  11-Jul-10, 23:45   #37
  +1   
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 6482
In regards to what Joe_Average has said, you really need to look into STT/MTT ICM calculations.

You need to work out the value of your chips, the odds you're getting and the potential value of your chips with a win.

In standard (top-heavy) MTT structure, its gonna be rarely in your favour to fold before the money, even against 3-4 ppl. Simply because getting ITM generally means something like double your buyin for 3hours of play - bad investment really. You need a massive chip up along the way and this is the chance. You could re-run the situation 4 times, even if you only won the hand once, if that once allowed you to reach the top 3 positions it would easily outweigh 3 times you failed to cash. Even if you folded the hand on the 4 occasions and made it to the first tier of money each time, you'd still win far less with those 4 minimum wins, than you would with one good FT result. Thats the way MTTs are.

However, if you're already past the money, lets say you're on the FT, with short stack. There's 6 people left, including you, five of them go allin, you might be much better off folding your short stack and picking up 2nd/3rd by default.

     
  12-Jul-10, 05:45   #38
  0   
Kerdisas 

Joined: May '10
Location: Belarus
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 151
Posted by jessthehuman:
In regards to what Joe_Average has said, you really need to look into STT/MTT ICM calculations.

You need to work out the value of your chips, the odds you're getting and the potential value of your chips with a win.

In standard (top-heavy) MTT structure, its gonna be rarely in your favour to fold before the money, even against 3-4 ppl. Simply because getting ITM generally means something like double your buyin for 3hours of play - bad investment really. You need a massive chip up along the way and this is the chance. You could re-run the situation 4 times, even if you only won the hand once, if that once allowed you to reach the top 3 positions it would easily outweigh 3 times you failed to cash. Even if you folded the hand on the 4 occasions and made it to the first tier of money each time, you'd still win far less with those 4 minimum wins, than you would with one good FT result. Thats the way MTTs are.

However, if you're already past the money, lets say you're on the FT, with short stack. There's 6 people left, including you, five of them go allin, you might be much better off folding your short stack and picking up 2nd/3rd by default.


Wise speach you are speaking. Can you also recommend any soft (preferably free) which can help in such calculations? I don't play Holdem so often (prefer Omaha to it) and don't use any soft for it.

     
  12-Jul-10, 08:01   #39
  0   
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Very intresting read about the AA folding preflop.
Did it so many times, folding AA preflop, but only in a SAT or a DON, never ever in a MTT, not on the bubble not when 4 or 5 players are allin.

     
  12-Jul-10, 14:23   #40
  0   
Joe_Average 

Joined: Dec '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 61 (M)
Posts: 735
Posted by jessthehuman:
In regards to what Joe_Average has said, you really need to look into STT/MTT ICM calculations.

You need to work out the value of your chips, the odds you're getting and the potential value of your chips with a win.

In standard (top-heavy) MTT structure, its gonna be rarely in your favour to fold before the money, even against 3-4 ppl. Simply because getting ITM generally means something like double your buyin for 3hours of play - bad investment really. You need a massive chip up along the way and this is the chance. You could re-run the situation 4 times, even if you only won the hand once, if that once allowed you to reach the top 3 positions it would easily outweigh 3 times you failed to cash. Even if you folded the hand on the 4 occasions and made it to the first tier of money each time, you'd still win far less with those 4 minimum wins, than you would with one good FT result. Thats the way MTTs are.

However, if you're already past the money, lets say you're on the FT, with short stack. There's 6 people left, including you, five of them go allin, you might be much better off folding your short stack and picking up 2nd/3rd by default.

Thank you for your clear explanation, Jess. I guess you must be right, but like Kerdisas, I only play like 15 ( live-) tournies a year, and then I don't want to be allin pf with ppl that have a pretty loose image. ( shoving/calling KQs, J10s etc.)
But for players that play lots of MTT's , I agree with your point of view.

     
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