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Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 148
I was in a qualifier tourney today, 1.10$ for the 100K weekly Lambo freeroll on PokerStars and was running relative good, nothing special (tripled with AA early, then after 40 min of being card dead a got 77 with witch a squeezed from the SB, got a call from the BTN with A2 and doubled up again to about 9K in chips). I was later moved to the current table and only saw about 14 hands here (picked up the blinds only 2 times). The hand that ended the tourney is the following: got dealt KK in the SB, 2 limpers (UTG +1 and the hijack), open-raised and then got shoved by the BB who was sitting in 40BB + the UTG+1 called the allin with 20BB. I didn't think the BB would do a squeeze there, therefore giving him credit. I figured he could have JJ, QQ, AK, AQ (less likely) and AA, but the problem was, the early limper called too. I knew the EP limper was not tricky as to limp with AA so I figured he had a medium PP and called bad anyway (77-TT). The thing is...I really considered to fold my kings there, knowing that the BB was rather tight and could have AA, but then I thought "neah, that's just me being result oriented, I'm crushing 75% of his range here most of the time" and eventually called. Enough talk...here's the hand:
PokerStars Game #49413527986: Tournament #308819646, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/10 19:32:43 EET [2010/09/10 12:32:43 ET] Table '308819646 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: gorbatkos (3182 in chips) Seat 2: stevee10 (7760 in chips) Seat 3: emad914 (255 in chips) is sitting out Seat 4: General2100 (4095 in chips) Seat 5: tomboogy (8496 in chips) Seat 6: Semyonius (8645 in chips) Seat 7: BOBKA RUS (7967 in chips) Seat 8: anneklatsche (4235 in chips) Seat 9: Ilay68 (735 in chips) is sitting out tomboogy: posts small blind 100 Semyonius: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to tomboogy [Ks Kh] BOBKA RUS: folds anneklatsche: calls 200 Ilay68: folds gorbatkos: folds stevee10: calls 200 emad914: folds General2100: folds Ilay68 has returned tomboogy: raises 345 to 545 Semyonius: raises 8100 to 8645 and is all-in anneklatsche: calls 4035 and is all-in stevee10: folds tomboogy: calls 7951 and is all-in Uncalled bet (149) returned to Semyonius *** FLOP *** [5c Tc 9h] *** TURN *** [5c Tc 9h] *** RIVER *** [5c Tc 9h 3c] *** SHOW DOWN *** tomboogy: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings) Semyonius: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces) Semyonius collected 8522 from side pot anneklatsche: shows [8s 8c] (a pair of Eights) anneklatsche is sitting out Semyonius collected 12905 from main pot tomboogy finished the tournament in 303rd place anneklatsche finished the tournament in 304th place
I believe that in the long run the call is the profitable solution after all and this was just a cooler (correct me if I'm wrong)
Edited by tomboogy (10 September 2010 @ 21:39 GMT)
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 148
@tongerlo: I folded QQ preflop too, and KK just once (I had a read on the guy - in 50 hands we played that far, he open raised and 3bet PF every strong hand but the exception was that he open shoved with AA one time, so the second time he open shoved...guess what he had ? )
@doomdy: I know that the 545 bet is kinda annoying for others, but it works good most of time (sometimes bad players will 3bet me just for being frustrated by these bets)...or do you think I should raise more PF ? I know some say to raise more with the monster hands, and I realized afterwards that with 2 limpers I should have gone with something like 4-5xBB, but usually I open-raise 2.2-3xBB and that is more than enough with decent players...
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by tomboogy: @doomdy: I know that the 545 bet is kinda annoying for others, but it works good most of time (sometimes bad players will 3bet me just for being frustrated by these bets)...or do you think I should raise more PF ? I know some say to raise more with the monster hands, and I realized afterwards that with 2 limpers I should have gone with something like 4-5xBB, but usually I open-raise 2.2-3xBB and that is more than enough with decent players...
Yes raise more, you dont want a family pot with lets say 4 or 5 players, then ur KK can be pretty dangerous and useless, dont try to smart-out people with strange raises in low stakes/ middle stakes, just play TAG and 100% you make profit. So preflop raise to 1200/1500 sometin like that, then u get HU, thats wot u want, the hand played is just unlucky, just a setup KK/AA hand.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Finland
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1248
Raise 545 LOL
Now its just IMO as you asked what would I do, - if you raise, do it properly. I would of limped also with AA or KK on the position where your opponent was so perfect game by him, nothing you could do because youd have to be stupid to fold KK there.
Reminds me a hand from High Stakes Poker, Sammy (KK) and Greenstein (AA) where Sammy called with KK 100k pot preflop knowing hes behind. But he hit the K on flop and declared its a cold deck
Its hard to fold KK here but there are some real reasons to. Ever heard of the 4-bet rule! your call would have been the 4th bet so it says if there are 4 bets pre-flop someone is hold KK or AA so you knew what you were holding so there was a 90% chance they had AA. Also what do people shove with? alot will shove as you correctly said AK,AQ, etc So you knew at best you would have to dodge an Ace for 5 streets, and the worse case senario DOM. by AA. For me the caller of the shove is time to wave the white flag (so hard to fold those Cowboys!) Your raise was a little small but in this case would not have made a difference. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other! Is it the goal of a tourney to survive and win or make + EV plays??? Being a bit of a nit sometimes can be a good thing.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 6483
how far off the bubble were you ? Qualifies/satellites have completely different ICM modelling to standard payout MTTs. I've folded AA preflop plenty of times in a satellite if I'm sitting pretty close to bubble and just waiting.
So it really depends, if you NEEDED to double up again, then a call is probably right, but it really just depends where you were in the field, how many make it through, etc.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Philippines
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1011
Posted by tomboogy: I was in a qualifier tourney today, 1.10$ for the 100K weekly Lambo freeroll on PokerStars and was running relative good, nothing special (tripled with AA early, then after 40 min of being card dead a got 77 with witch a squeezed from the SB, got a call from the BTN with A2 and doubled up again to about 9K in chips). I was later moved to the current table and only saw about 14 hands here (picked up the blinds only 2 times). The hand that ended the tourney is the following: got dealt KK in the SB, 2 limpers (UTG +1 and the hijack), open-raised and then got shoved by the BB who was sitting in 40BB + the UTG+1 called the allin with 20BB. I didn't think the BB would do a squeeze there, therefore giving him credit. I figured he could have JJ, QQ, AK, AQ (less likely) and AA, but the problem was, the early limper called too. I knew the EP limper was not tricky as to limp with AA so I figured he had a medium PP and called bad anyway (77-TT). The thing is...I really considered to fold my kings there, knowing that the BB was rather tight and could have AA, but then I thought "neah, that's just me being result oriented, I'm crushing 75% of his range here most of the time" and eventually called. Enough talk...here's the hand:
PokerStars Game #49413527986: Tournament #308819646, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/10 19:32:43 EET [2010/09/10 12:32:43 ET] Table '308819646 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: gorbatkos (3182 in chips) Seat 2: stevee10 (7760 in chips) Seat 3: emad914 (255 in chips) is sitting out Seat 4: General2100 (4095 in chips) Seat 5: tomboogy (8496 in chips) Seat 6: Semyonius (8645 in chips) Seat 7: BOBKA RUS (7967 in chips) Seat 8: anneklatsche (4235 in chips) Seat 9: Ilay68 (735 in chips) is sitting out tomboogy: posts small blind 100 Semyonius: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to tomboogy [Ks Kh] BOBKA RUS: folds anneklatsche: calls 200 Ilay68: folds gorbatkos: folds stevee10: calls 200 emad914: folds General2100: folds Ilay68 has returned tomboogy: raises 345 to 545 Semyonius: raises 8100 to 8645 and is all-in anneklatsche: calls 4035 and is all-in stevee10: folds tomboogy: calls 7951 and is all-in Uncalled bet (149) returned to Semyonius *** FLOP *** [5c Tc 9h] *** TURN *** [5c Tc 9h] *** RIVER *** [5c Tc 9h 3c] *** SHOW DOWN *** tomboogy: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings) Semyonius: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces) Semyonius collected 8522 from side pot anneklatsche: shows [8s 8c] (a pair of Eights) anneklatsche is sitting out Semyonius collected 12905 from main pot tomboogy finished the tournament in 303rd place anneklatsche finished the tournament in 304th place
I believe that in the long run the call is the profitable solution after all and this was just a cooler (correct me if I'm wrong)
i never fold with a monster hand... and kk is definitely 1 of them... your just unlucky that time..
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by humito: Its hard to fold KK here but there are some real reasons to. Ever heard of the 4-bet rule! your call would have been the 4th bet so it says if there are 4 bets pre-flop someone is hold KK or AA so you knew what you were holding so there was a 90% chance they had AA.
LMAO This is so crap, you know the outcome of the hand and your searching for reasons to justify a KK fold, thats the totally other way around. The hand is played fine (not talking about the gay-raise, this was very ugly). In fact its a very BIG mistake folding KK here and for sure NOT the other way around.
''Ever heard of the 4-bet rule!''? (Quote) LMAO ''you know what you were holding so there was 90% chance they had AA'' (Quote) LMAO
OMFG you just made my day with this total b******t
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 148
@ Kristan: You weren't paying attention - the AA was the BB, the limper only had 88 so no perfect game from him. Yeah I also remember the hand Farha and Greenstein played, it was sick as hell
@ Humito: I know what 4bet is...my call isn't a 4bet, the AA 3bet/shoved on me...Now, if he would've raised and I 4bet him and then he shoved on me, I would've folded, but I'm almost never folding KK there because I'm crushing his range at least 3 out of 4 hands and more so, I wouldn't fold KK to AK or QQ to AQ just because he has those 3 outs he can hit...that's just stupid. It's like a friend of mine used to do a while ago...he wouldn't call with a pair (second or top with bad kicker) even though he was sure his opponent had a draw because "he might hit it until the river" and played scared instead of raising him
@ jessthehuman: I was sitting on 42 BB and was smth like 35th out of 300 remaining players - there where almost 1000 entrants. If I had only 10-16 BB I would almost always snap call there, but not being in the need of a double up...there lies my problem. The payout began at about 150 people, and the first 27 players received a seat to the 100K $ weekly. My standard game strategy is to keep being TAG even on the bubble, maybe even loosening my game a little and making squeezes all over the place - I'm not playing the stack/BB ratio anymore but the M ratio of Action Dan in witch you're push/fold with a little bigger stack that you'd think instead of waiting for that monster hand with just 7 BB left and get called by the big stack blinds who suck out on you with 56s. I found that this strategy works very good for me because before, although I was ITM more, I almost always was very shortstacked and needed a miracle to stay alive...as now, even if I get ITM a little less because I'm taking more risk on the bubble, a get further ahead in the tourney and giving me possibility of more final tables.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by humito: Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!
This quote is totally correct and spot on btw!
Last night i played a Final Phase on PKR, $170 buyin, top4 get paid ($700/$400/$300/$200). With 5 left UTG limped and i was BB with 92o. I flopped bottom 2 pair with a draw on board. I checked (stupid yes true), UTG allin..... I know i am ahead, 60/40, 65/35, 70/30 who knows? After using all my timebank i folded..... This morning i stood up and still was thinking about that hand, very stupid laydown? justified laydown? i have no clue
Anyway i came in 3rd for $300 but thats not really the point When i saw this ''Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!'' i thought about this final again....
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 148
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by humito: Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!
This quote is totally correct and spot on btw!
It is indeed very well said, but the problem remains the same...
@shokaku: Yes f****ng way I know a lot of people think that because it is a low buy-in you can pay lighter and let luck do it's bidding...I once was in hand at a 3$ tourney on PS where 99 raised from MP 9xBB ( to 900 ), I reraised to 3000 with AA, a guy after me went allin with 80BB with JJ and the first guy called and worse plays than this believe me...the thing is I believe I could go to higher buyins and play good, but just don't have the BR for it yet. Last time I played this 1.10$ qualifier I took 1st place (200$) and played the same. Unfortunately, had some debts and bills to pay so I had withdrawn most of the money -> thus playing 1$ MTT (although I know I shouldn't do it right now).
@doomdy: Yeah I guess it was something like 60/40 if he had an over with the flush draw, but I don''t even think he had that. The check is not a bad play. It encourages very aggressive players to do those kind of moves on the bubble. You really gave the hand away there...I would seldom check there just so my opponent would make such a move, otherwise just bet it, it's not worth the risk of letting free cards flying on the table
Edited by tomboogy (11 September 2010 @ 07:45 GMT)
@ doomdy "ever heard of the 4-bet" if you think this is b******t you should speak to the guy who discovered it! Phil Cordon.. is was myself just quoting , but there is some truth in it . Next time you see 4-bets and i mean bets not limps so for example, bet,raise,call,re-raise, etc. Someone is nearly always hold AA or KK. If its 2 people KK or AA is an almost dead cert. to be shown and a good percentage of the time its AA vs KK. Please make a mental note of this and watch the showdown. I never beleive blindly anything but this has saved me $$$ when ive had KK and folded and they have shown AA.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by humito: @ doomdy "ever heard of the 4-bet" if you think this is b******t you should speak to the guy who discovered it! Phil Cordon.. is was myself just quoting , but there is some truth in it . Next time you see 4-bets and i mean bets not limps so for example, bet,raise,call,re-raise, etc. Someone is nearly always hold AA or KK. If its 2 people KK or AA is an almost dead cert. to be shown and a good percentage of the time its AA vs KK. Please make a mental note of this and watch the showdown. I never beleive blindly anything but this has saved me $$$ when ive had KK and folded and they have shown AA.
Sry had a bad day, was a bit mouthy, but still this is a $1 buyin, cos even if there were 4 allinns its still a no brainer fistpump with KK
I think u make a right decision, the chance that u gott KK in the same time when somebody got AA is very little (but i see this situation a lot ) . And i never fold the second strongest hand.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 469
O f course you did well this is an all in situation. You couldnt do other way. The thing is (one more time)... pokerstars always do this! This trapped hands in this tourneys to eliminate players. That is why why cant take that room no more. They always do that!
in witch you're push/fold with a little bigger stack that you'd think 
and worse plays than this believe me...the thing is I believe I could go to higher buyins and play good, but just don't have the BR for it yet. Last time I played this 1.10$ qualifier I took 1st place (200$) and played the same. Unfortunately, had some debts and bills to pay so I had withdrawn most of the money -> thus playing 1$ MTT (although I know I shouldn't do it right now).
