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Would you fold KK there?
 

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What would you have done here?  0   
I was in a qualifier tourney today, 1.10$ for the 100K weekly Lambo freeroll on PokerStars and was running relative good, nothing special (tripled with AA early, then after 40 min of being card dead a got 77 with witch a squeezed from the SB, got a call from the BTN with A2 and doubled up again to about 9K in chips). I was later moved to the current table and only saw about 14 hands here (picked up the blinds only 2 times). The hand that ended the tourney is the following: got dealt KK in the SB, 2 limpers (UTG +1 and the hijack), open-raised and then got shoved by the BB who was sitting in 40BB + the UTG+1 called the allin with 20BB.
I didn't think the BB would do a squeeze there, therefore giving him credit. I figured he could have JJ, QQ, AK, AQ (less likely) and AA, but the problem was, the early limper called too. I knew the EP limper was not tricky as to limp with AA so I figured he had a medium PP and called bad anyway (77-TT). The thing is...I really considered to fold my kings there, knowing that the BB was rather tight and could have AA, but then I thought "neah, that's just me being result oriented, I'm crushing 75% of his range here most of the time" and eventually called. Enough talk...here's the hand:

PokerStars Game #49413527986: Tournament #308819646, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/10 19:32:43 EET [2010/09/10 12:32:43 ET]
Table '308819646 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: gorbatkos (3182 in chips)
Seat 2: stevee10 (7760 in chips)
Seat 3: emad914 (255 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: General2100 (4095 in chips)
Seat 5: tomboogy (8496 in chips)
Seat 6: Semyonius (8645 in chips)
Seat 7: BOBKA RUS (7967 in chips)
Seat 8: anneklatsche (4235 in chips)
Seat 9: Ilay68 (735 in chips) is sitting out
tomboogy: posts small blind 100
Semyonius: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tomboogy [Ks Kh]
BOBKA RUS: folds
anneklatsche: calls 200
Ilay68: folds
gorbatkos: folds
stevee10: calls 200
emad914: folds
General2100: folds
Ilay68 has returned
tomboogy: raises 345 to 545
Semyonius: raises 8100 to 8645 and is all-in
anneklatsche: calls 4035 and is all-in
stevee10: folds
tomboogy: calls 7951 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (149) returned to Semyonius
*** FLOP *** [5c Tc 9h]
*** TURN *** [5c Tc 9h] 3 of clubs
*** RIVER *** [5c Tc 9h 3c] Jack of hearts
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tomboogy: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings)
Semyonius: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
Semyonius collected 8522 from side pot
anneklatsche: shows [8s 8c] (a pair of Eights)
anneklatsche is sitting out
Semyonius collected 12905 from main pot
tomboogy finished the tournament in 303rd place
anneklatsche finished the tournament in 304th place

I believe that in the long run the call is the profitable solution after all and this was just a cooler (correct me if I'm wrong) Big Smile

Edited by tomboogy (10 September 2010 @ 21:39 GMT)


     
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I for sure had called as well
I know you are supposed to fold KK sometimes preflop but I can't. I have folded QQ preflop but never KK
Spade Club Heart Diamond

     
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Well first of all dont gay-raise preflop please, thats so ugly Sad
To go allin preflop with KK isnot a mistake so you cant blame urself, just a setup.

     
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@tongerlo: I folded QQ preflop too, and KK just once (I had a read on the guy - in 50 hands we played that far, he open raised and 3bet PF every strong hand but the exception was that he open shoved with AA one time, so the second time he open shoved...guess what he had ? Big Smile )

@doomdy: I know that the 545 bet is kinda annoying for others, but it works good most of time (sometimes bad players will 3bet me just for being frustrated by these bets)...or do you think I should raise more PF ? I know some say to raise more with the monster hands, and I realized afterwards that with 2 limpers I should have gone with something like 4-5xBB, but usually I open-raise 2.2-3xBB and that is more than enough with decent players...

     
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Posted by tomboogy:
@doomdy: I know that the 545 bet is kinda annoying for others, but it works good most of time (sometimes bad players will 3bet me just for being frustrated by these bets)...or do you think I should raise more PF ? I know some say to raise more with the monster hands, and I realized afterwards that with 2 limpers I should have gone with something like 4-5xBB, but usually I open-raise 2.2-3xBB and that is more than enough with decent players...


Yes raise more, you dont want a family pot with lets say 4 or 5 players, then ur KK can be pretty dangerous and useless, dont try to smart-out people with strange raises in low stakes/ middle stakes, just play TAG and 100% you make profit.
So preflop raise to 1200/1500 sometin like that, then u get HU, thats wot u want, the hand played is just unlucky, just a setup KK/AA hand.

     
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Raise 545 Confused Confused Confused LOL

Now its just IMO as you asked what would I do, - if you raise, do it properly. I would of limped also with AA or KK on the position where your opponent was so perfect game by him, nothing you could do because youd have to be stupid to fold KK there.

Reminds me a hand from High Stakes Poker, Sammy (KK) and Greenstein (AA) where Sammy called with KK 100k pot preflop knowing hes behind. But he hit the K on flop and declared its a cold deck Blink Thumbs Up

     
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Its hard to fold KK here but there are some real reasons to.
Ever heard of the 4-bet rule! your call would have been the 4th bet so it says if there are 4 bets pre-flop someone is hold KK or AA so you knew what you were holding so there was a 90% chance they had AA.
Also what do people shove with? alot will shove as you correctly said AK,AQ, etc
So you knew at best you would have to dodge an Ace for 5 streets, and the worse case senario DOM. by AA.
For me the caller of the shove is time to wave the white flag (so hard to fold those Cowboys!)
Your raise was a little small but in this case would not have made a difference.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!
Is it the goal of a tourney to survive and win or make + EV plays???
Being a bit of a nit sometimes can be a good thing.

     
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how far off the bubble were you ? Qualifies/satellites have completely different ICM modelling to standard payout MTTs. I've folded AA preflop plenty of times in a satellite if I'm sitting pretty close to bubble and just waiting.

So it really depends, if you NEEDED to double up again, then a call is probably right, but it really just depends where you were in the field, how many make it through, etc.

     
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Posted by tomboogy:
I was in a qualifier tourney today, 1.10$ for the 100K weekly Lambo freeroll on PokerStars and was running relative good, nothing special (tripled with AA early, then after 40 min of being card dead a got 77 with witch a squeezed from the SB, got a call from the BTN with A2 and doubled up again to about 9K in chips). I was later moved to the current table and only saw about 14 hands here (picked up the blinds only 2 times). The hand that ended the tourney is the following: got dealt KK in the SB, 2 limpers (UTG +1 and the hijack), open-raised and then got shoved by the BB who was sitting in 40BB + the UTG+1 called the allin with 20BB.
I didn't think the BB would do a squeeze there, therefore giving him credit. I figured he could have JJ, QQ, AK, AQ (less likely) and AA, but the problem was, the early limper called too. I knew the EP limper was not tricky as to limp with AA so I figured he had a medium PP and called bad anyway (77-TT). The thing is...I really considered to fold my kings there, knowing that the BB was rather tight and could have AA, but then I thought "neah, that's just me being result oriented, I'm crushing 75% of his range here most of the time" and eventually called. Enough talk...here's the hand:

PokerStars Game #49413527986: Tournament #308819646, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/10 19:32:43 EET [2010/09/10 12:32:43 ET]
Table '308819646 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: gorbatkos (3182 in chips)
Seat 2: stevee10 (7760 in chips)
Seat 3: emad914 (255 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: General2100 (4095 in chips)
Seat 5: tomboogy (8496 in chips)
Seat 6: Semyonius (8645 in chips)
Seat 7: BOBKA RUS (7967 in chips)
Seat 8: anneklatsche (4235 in chips)
Seat 9: Ilay68 (735 in chips) is sitting out
tomboogy: posts small blind 100
Semyonius: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tomboogy [Ks Kh]
BOBKA RUS: folds
anneklatsche: calls 200
Ilay68: folds
gorbatkos: folds
stevee10: calls 200
emad914: folds
General2100: folds
Ilay68 has returned
tomboogy: raises 345 to 545
Semyonius: raises 8100 to 8645 and is all-in
anneklatsche: calls 4035 and is all-in
stevee10: folds
tomboogy: calls 7951 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (149) returned to Semyonius
*** FLOP *** [5c Tc 9h]
*** TURN *** [5c Tc 9h] 3 of clubs
*** RIVER *** [5c Tc 9h 3c] Jack of hearts
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tomboogy: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings)
Semyonius: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
Semyonius collected 8522 from side pot
anneklatsche: shows [8s 8c] (a pair of Eights)
anneklatsche is sitting out
Semyonius collected 12905 from main pot
tomboogy finished the tournament in 303rd place
anneklatsche finished the tournament in 304th place

I believe that in the long run the call is the profitable solution after all and this was just a cooler (correct me if I'm wrong) Big Smile

i never fold with a monster hand... and kk is definitely 1 of them... your just unlucky that time.. Sad

     
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Folding KK preflop in an one dollar tourney? No f*****g way. Cool

But as doomdy said, raise more preflop.

     
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Posted by humito:
Its hard to fold KK here but there are some real reasons to.
Ever heard of the 4-bet rule! your call would have been the 4th bet so it says if there are 4 bets pre-flop someone is hold KK or AA so you knew what you were holding so there was a 90% chance they had AA.


LMAO Big Smile
This is so crap, you know the outcome of the hand and your searching for reasons to justify a KK fold, thats the totally other way around.
The hand is played fine (not talking about the gay-raise, this was very ugly).
In fact its a very BIG mistake folding KK here and for sure NOT the other way around.

''Ever heard of the 4-bet rule!''? (Quote) LMAO Big Smile
''you know what you were holding so there was 90% chance they had AA'' (Quote) LMAO Big Smile

OMFG you just made my day with this total b******t Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
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@ Kristan: You weren't paying attention - the AA was the BB, the limper only had 88 so no perfect game from him. Yeah I also remember the hand Farha and Greenstein played, it was sick as hell Agree

@ Humito: I know what 4bet is...my call isn't a 4bet, the AA 3bet/shoved on me...Now, if he would've raised and I 4bet him and then he shoved on me, I would've folded, but I'm almost never folding KK there because I'm crushing his range at least 3 out of 4 hands and more so, I wouldn't fold KK to AK or QQ to AQ just because he has those 3 outs he can hit...that's just stupid.
It's like a friend of mine used to do a while ago...he wouldn't call with a pair (second or top with bad kicker) even though he was sure his opponent had a draw because "he might hit it until the river" and played scared instead of raising him
Aww crap!

@ jessthehuman: I was sitting on 42 BB and was smth like 35th out of 300 remaining players - there where almost 1000 entrants. If I had only 10-16 BB I would almost always snap call there, but not being in the need of a double up...there lies my problem.
The payout began at about 150 people, and the first 27 players received a seat to the 100K $ weekly. My standard game strategy is to keep being TAG even on the bubble, maybe even loosening my game a little and making squeezes all over the place - I'm not playing the stack/BB ratio anymore but the M ratio of Action Dan Smile in witch you're push/fold with a little bigger stack that you'd think Blink instead of waiting for that monster hand with just 7 BB left and get called by the big stack blinds who suck out on you with 56s. I found that this strategy works very good for me because before, although I was ITM more, I almost always was very shortstacked and needed a miracle to stay alive...as now, even if I get ITM a little less because I'm taking more risk on the bubble, a get further ahead in the tourney and giving me possibility of more final tables.

     
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Posted by humito:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!


This quote is totally correct and spot on btw! Agree

Last night i played a Final Phase on PKR, $170 buyin, top4 get paid ($700/$400/$300/$200).
With 5 left UTG limped and i was BB with 92o.
I flopped bottom 2 pair with a draw on board.
I checked (stupid yes true), UTG allin.....
I know i am ahead, 60/40, 65/35, 70/30 who knows?
After using all my timebank i folded..... Confused
This morning i stood up and still was thinking about that hand, very stupid laydown? justified laydown? i have no clue Confused

Anyway i came in 3rd for $300 but thats not really the point Confused
When i saw this ''Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!'' i thought about this final again....

I am a tight nit.....

Disagree

Edited by doomdy (11 September 2010 @ 07:29 GMT)


     
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Posted by doomdy:
Posted by humito:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but sometimes +EV plays and survival contredict each other!


This quote is totally correct and spot on btw! Agree


It is indeed very well said, but the problem remains the same...

@shokaku: Yes f****ng way Big Smile I know a lot of people think that because it is a low buy-in you can pay lighter and let luck do it's bidding...I once was in hand at a 3$ tourney on PS where 99 raised from MP 9xBB ( to 900 ), I reraised to 3000 with AA, a guy after me went allin with 80BB with JJ and the first guy called Shock and worse plays than this believe me...the thing is I believe I could go to higher buyins and play good, but just don't have the BR for it yet. Last time I played this 1.10$ qualifier I took 1st place (200$) and played the same. Unfortunately, had some debts and bills to pay so I had withdrawn most of the money -> thus playing 1$ MTT (although I know I shouldn't do it right now).

@doomdy: Yeah I guess it was something like 60/40 if he had an over with the flush draw, but I don''t even think he had that. The check is not a bad play. It encourages very aggressive players to do those kind of moves on the bubble. You really gave the hand away there...I would seldom check there just so my opponent would make such a move, otherwise just bet it, it's not worth the risk of letting free cards flying on the table Tongue

Edited by tomboogy (11 September 2010 @ 07:45 GMT)


     
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Oh.. I never fold with a KK in my hnds in this situation...
You can win easily... I think that the correct way its keep hand and raise...

     
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@ doomdy
"ever heard of the 4-bet"
if you think this is b******t you should speak to the guy who discovered it!
Phil Cordon.. is was myself just quoting , but there is some truth in it .
Next time you see 4-bets and i mean bets not limps so for example, bet,raise,call,re-raise, etc.
Someone is nearly always hold AA or KK.
If its 2 people KK or AA is an almost dead cert. to be shown and a good percentage of the time its AA vs KK.
Please make a mental note of this and watch the showdown.
I never beleive blindly anything but this has saved me $$$ when ive had KK and folded and they have shown AA.

     
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Posted by humito:
@ doomdy
"ever heard of the 4-bet"
if you think this is b******t you should speak to the guy who discovered it!
Phil Cordon.. is was myself just quoting , but there is some truth in it .
Next time you see 4-bets and i mean bets not limps so for example, bet,raise,call,re-raise, etc.
Someone is nearly always hold AA or KK.
If its 2 people KK or AA is an almost dead cert. to be shown and a good percentage of the time its AA vs KK.
Please make a mental note of this and watch the showdown.
I never beleive blindly anything but this has saved me $$$ when ive had KK and folded and they have shown AA.


Sry had a bad day, was a bit mouthy, but still this is a $1 buyin, cos even if there were 4 allinns its still a no brainer fistpump with KK Evil

     
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I think u make a right decision, the chance that u gott KK in the same time when somebody got AA is very little (but i see this situation a lot ) Aww crap! . And i never fold the second strongest hand.

     
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O f course you did well this is an all in situation. You couldnt do other way. The thing is (one more time)... pokerstars always do this! This trapped hands in this tourneys to eliminate players. That is why why cant take that room no more. They always do that!

     
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no worries mate Blink ..i usually dont fold KK either!
how are Ajax doing ? im a arsenal fan and Vermaelen is superb big loss 4 U ! Sad

     
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