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How do you feel the hands were played?
 

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Posted by shokaku:
Posted by Kristan:
Opponent cant be strong so he will fold most of times? What if he doesnt Confused

Then he puts HIS tournament life at risk. And with those two low cards we will most likely have two live cards we can hit.

But of cause we don't want him to call.


LOL!!!!!!!

You make me speechless. Im having doubts now wether to continue this conversation or just ignore your posts in future aswell Confused

"And with those two low cards we will most likely have ..." LOL. think Ill just stay observer in this thread from now on. It surprises me how one can be so stupid and give such bad advice basing on "most likely" facts.

     
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Posted by Kristan:
"And with those two low cards we will most likely have ..." LOL. think Ill just stay observer in this thread from now on. It surprises me how one can be so stupid and give such bad advice basing on "most likely" facts.

*sigh*
As i am no superuser i can't see his cards, so i still have to guess. It is a big part about poker. If he is able to call off all his chips with something like A6 or K7, we can end up in bad shape.
But remember:

76o vs AQo has 37%

A6o vs AQo only has 27%

And do YOU put all your chips at risk against a guy who suddenly woke up and reraised you all in, after he had folded again and again in the rounds before?

     
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@doomdy actually, its not for noobs, im trying to get some of the good players here out of hiding, cant be bother posting hands wich have easy answers.
@shokaku you get a gold star for seeing what is going on.
@awood88 no doubts, I made a choice and stick by it Smile , the pot is a little small, yer agreed, kinda why i mention overshovnig.
@Kristan its past basics, perhaps you go learn some more advanced moves.
This, as mention above is not a standard move, I gave reasons why, if you dont understand it then thats fine and im the nit.


2.OK, well seams like most people do say push or fold, so guessing it does not need much explination.
Its a little like the first hand, a little, this time there is no ante, so my range must be tight(ish) and this time I need the cards to pull off such a move.
For a super aggro player, he is betting light here, so going with instancs/read and agin expect the fold, if no iv got a hand.
Again im playing the player you cant make moves like that without reason to do so, you need the hand, the position a good read.

Edited by B1gfoot (29 December 2010 @ 15:14 GMT)


     
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Hand2 is pretty standard, only thing not to do is call, push and fold is fine.

Hand1: No offend to anybody but Kristan have a very big sample of MTT games, profitable that is, mostly omaha but also a lot of Holdem. For as i know you (Mr B1gfoot) dont (correct me if i am wrong) have a big sample size of MTT games and have no clue winning or not. I dont defending anybodys play here but for sure PUSH is not standard also not when you have a read on this min raise player. I follow rule nr1:''when we a good chipcount dont blow it and try to increase it with minimum risk''. And again if the outcome of a move is positiv it doesnt mean the move itself is EV+ Smile

     
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Yep. Not much to say about the second hand. You can't raise without going all-in and you can't just call either. Both these hands are same-ish in that they rely on your reading skills of the opponent and the situation, so it is hard for us to say you are wrong or right.

I like the idea of this thread and I agree that the answers are not clear cut and that is a good thing. I think the next hands you mentioned are more interesting and I look forward to discussing them.

     
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@doomdy no its not standard play, my MTT history goes back 5ish years, yes I mainly play cash games, but am no stranger to MTTs, SnGs and DonS..I was playing MTTs and SnGs well before my move to cash games, and im a all round winning player most profit from cash but a good share in MTTs and SnGs...I dont specilise in any game.
@awood88 100% reading skills is the answer, I guess I should not have called the thread wrong or right as im not actually loking for an answer, I like the debate.

Iif we all play ABC then will we all make it to the final?

     
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Posted by B1gfoot:
Iif we all play ABC then will we all make it to the final?


Poker is a littl bit more complicater then that lol Tongue
A top3 finish MTT is in many times just 1 or 2 good moves (300/500 runners MTTs), a fold where you can push or a push where you can fold or just 1 or 2 good blufs, more you dont need, just basicly abc poker, if we really want to be on another level then we need other moves, but still the base is TAG abc.

With a sample size i mean at least 1,5K games of MTT or even better 2K+ games Agree

Edit: I dont critisize the push with 67, in fact i do it also in times, sometimes we have to make a stand, but its mostly when blinds are higher and at a Final Table, in fact i am a nit but when playin a Final Table and the circumstances are right and blinds are high i am playing 50% hands or even far more, fact is most agressiv player at Final Table will mostly finish 10th or ship it. but every FT isnt the same, sometimes we have to sit back and watch players kill each other, sometimes we have to spew spew and spew cos there are 9 nits.

Edited by doomdy (29 December 2010 @ 16:47 GMT)


     
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Good post B1gfoot. Thumbs Up

It's great to discuss these hands and hear how other players are working them. This for me is the best part of the forum. Please post more threads like this periodically.

     
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1. I would not push here unless I am very sure he folds. I would rather call and try a steal on the flop current stack is to good to risk 30% on a move.
2. With position on the villan I think a flat calll is fine. LAG could easily call with a week Ace but could easily lay it down after the flop
3.I like the reraise preflop but would bet the flop to see where I was at, so I wasnt guessing if he had an ace if he bet the turn.
4. Would not reraise, at best we are a coin flip and poor position against 2 players. Good chance there are min of 3 over cards or a higher pair.

     
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3.
First of all here, its the classic position that is going to win me this pot.
I dont have huge respect for the villian, but am causious, his bet to me is kinda random and does not say much, id be putting him on A* or PPs, possable connetors etc.
Im looking to take this down post-flop, I did not expect him to fold pre.
The flop drops my scare card..but is it his?
I choose to check behind him here, see what the turn brings, I dont feel a c-bet will do anything, and could be eaisly running in to an ace, but I can check behind and rep the ace on the turn if he does not bet out, also a lot of people in my position would check here with an ace if I came out betting id be representing a weak hand (IMO) and he could force me off it.
His check on the turn gives me the info I was after and I feel I can take him of A* hands, so PPs etc..
Worst case here for me is if he had set, if he does then I expect a re-raise (even if he has an ace id expect a re-raise)
My bet looks small, but I re-raised to start, so should look a little like a value bet, but still eaving room to get out, balancing a bluff with a value bet.

     
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With all respect Mr B1gfoot, HH 1,3,4 dont make much sense to me, its for 99% a succsfull move but that doesnt make it a EV+ move in the long run, very simple. Making suchs moves on Full Ring isnt advise-able (dunno if this word is correct Agree), ok if ur playing 6max its a different story but not Full Ring. Ur preaching ur HH3 and HH4 as smart moves but its just a move that workes for this example which can easily be beaten in same situation next time, i understand to mix up ur game, but its FullRing not 6max, there are a lot of donks there who can be easily beat (long run) by just simple TAG ABC poker, thats more profitable then making moves suchs as HH3 and HH4.

Ok HH2 standard no problem, nothing special.

HH1, again no offend, but i hardly doubt if ur a winning player with a decent sample size on MTT games (ur mainly cash gamer imo, i am not counting a couple freerolls or low limit MTTs in the past). Ur also preaching a smart move here were i doubt that very much, imo its again a move that worked, but that doesnt mean the move is EV+ itself, not saying its a stupid move cos sometimes yes we have to make a stand and if we loose that so be it, but we cant say thats better then just ABC poker, in fact ABC is more profitable in the long run.

Sorry for my english and again i am not trying to offend you, but all i see is moves that worked, not moves who are EV+ long run. I like the thread and the discussion going and understand you want to be out of the ''just ABC'' poker situation.

Just my 2cent Smile

     
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This is a great post!
Hand analysis is definitely lacking from my game, and it´s VERY interesting to read everyone´s take on these examples.
The differences in opinion is what makes the game what it is.
Great discussion! Thumbs Up

     
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Posted by B1gfoot:
3.
Im looking to take this down post-flop, I did not expect him to fold pre.


I think it's quite clear that you intended to out play him on the flop. I see nothing wrong with this. If he re-raises pre-flop you might have to fold but I think it's safe to say it was unlikely.
Posted by B1gfoot:
The flop drops my scare card..but is it his? also a lot of people in my position would check here with an ace if I came out betting id be representing a weak hand


Hang on. There is no better card than an Ace for you to see on the flop other than K. You represented a strong hand preflop, you should be able to get A10 or lower to fold. If you were worried he would call you down with A rag you should not have played the flop with him. If you had AQ here you should be betting to stop him hitting two pair or trips so it's perfectly plausible for you to represent it.

Posted by B1gfoot:
My bet looks small, but I re-raised to start, so should look a little like a value bet, but still eaving room to get out, balancing a bluff with a value bet.


I think that's fine. If he doesn't have anything he can't call. Unless he has a good read on you he won't counter bluff. You can still represent many good hands and push him off. If he calls it's most likely a drawing or weak hand and you will need to bet hard on any blank river. But that could be hard to do.

So in all not too bad but I would prefer to see a bet on the flop.

     
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@doomdy, I cant keep telling you that these are not standard ABC moves, Im explaining why I did these moves and hopefully showing people that altho ABC works, so does getting to know your player and actually playing poker.
Im not offended, and ofcause these moves will have high variance, so you need to know when you are likely to get away with them.
And I have said altho i was sat at FR for the cash games they were in fact SH.
The bigger the tables you play the less donks there are to make profit from, ABC at nl100 just wont work.
@Awood88 actullay you right, the ace here is a good card for me, in fact its a dry board wich is what I wanted, probably should have c-bet and took it down a little eairly, I guess for peace of mind I wanted to make sure he missed before making a move.

------------
4. This I guess will be a little hard for people to grasp.
What I am actually doing here is using outher players aggresion against them...Oh and this is by far the riskyist move from all Iv posted..
I guess im missing a little info on me here, so at this table I have a clean image, as yet not made any moves without a hand, this does play an important factor.
I know I can forget the LAG player here, we all expect the button to put in a bet right?
The small blind, he is giving it all with crap, defending, playing out of position on somewhat of a tilt.
Anyone who knows correct betting sizes will know my bet here is a small bet, but its intendd to be big enougth to get the weak/LAG players of thier hands using my image.
What do I expect the outcome to be here, well I expect either a shove or a fold.
If they shove, well I can eaisly get out of the hand.
I can see you all going "WITH 33!!!" the hand itself is not too important.

Im hoping Iv show a few hands that involved POKER and not I bet because I have a hand.
Now you all know ABC, take it a little further, win a few extra pots on the way by getting to know who you are playing and when you do try and out play them.



Edited by B1gfoot (30 December 2010 @ 18:58 GMT)


     
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lol, past basics? Ok, you do your thing man, and if iI ever happen to play with you in same table i will min raise you every single time I have a hand - so after 3 -4 time you push your chips in with 67 and you stay put as an observer in tourney table.

I red your reasons why and I just dont understand it, so if you want to call yourself nit because I HAD A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOU then fine - UR A NIT. but only because you said!

Just sad you ask players opinions and then make a statement that if i dont agree with your REASONS WHY, you call me a dumbass! Thats very interesting indeed. So much for your open discuss about hands. mhm i see. im cool with that, wish there were more players like you in that case, because what could be easier than to call an all in by 67 Thumbs Up!

How did you ended the tourney and did he called your all in?

Edit: You said also ABC at nl 100 wont work? I have a friend in pkr.com, dont knwo if im allowed to mention his name have to ask him first in you want to know, but he plays 100nl abc and hes up more than 100 000$ with 2 years! So I guess it does work Confused

Edited by Kristan (30 December 2010 @ 21:13 GMT)


     
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Posted by B1gfoot:
ABC at nl100 just wont work.


WTF Confused Thats the most crazy quote i ever heard from you Confused

Offcourse ABC work at NL100 FullRing and 6max, it also works at NL200, above NL200 you have to be more creative but NL200 and lower is beat-able with only ABC poker, just a fact

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Posted by B1gfoot:
Im hoping Iv show a few hands that involved POKER and not I bet because I have a hand.
Now you all know ABC, take it a little further, win a few extra pots on the way by getting to know who you are playing and when you do try and out play them.


Again no, offcourse you win a couple extra pots with these moves but you forget the fact you also loose a couple of pots with these moves with allready money from yourself in that pot. I again see only moves that worked out and again i say that doesnt mean the move itself is EV+

Edited by doomdy (30 December 2010 @ 21:49 GMT)


     
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Hand 1: Would wait for a better hand to make a move, no reason to risk 1/3 of you chips with 7 high.

Hand 2:Would just call if in position. Hope to jackpot to flop, because if he is super aggressive you can almost count on a continuation bet.

Hand 3:Bet on the flop everything before the flop was good. Bet on the flop to represent the ace and to see if that what he was in with.

Hand 4: No need to repop unless you know late position will fold. Even then I don't want to re open a tight player that had already raised 9X BB out of position in the SB. More than likely has a very strong hand. One to which you may be drawing to 2 outs.
Hand 4:

     
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Kristan, the diffrence is id know youd have a hand(as im sure you would fold a few), were as here I know he i s repeatingly doing so, if in fact he had a hand evertime he min raised me then hes a very lucky man.
I never called you a dumbass, I said if you dont understand the move then thats fine im a nit, perhaps i should not have said understand and used agree.
I won the hand and made ITM in both tourns.
With regurads to ABC, Iv said post #34 thay" ABC works", in the same postI then say "ABC at nl100 just wont work." what I ment is that ABC an NL100 just does not cut it, you have to be able to spot weakness in outher peoples play to get ahead, or to get ahead a little more.

     
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Posted by B1gfoot:
Some hands (sorry not a HH) played out in diffrent games, just woundering how you feel the play is, good, bad, stupid etc etc...how would you play them hands in that situation?
Plese dont say we need more info, iv gave all that is needed.

1.Tounament - blinds 600/1200 ante 150

Hero has 67o from the big blind with a 57k stack
Folds around to the button
Villan on button min raises (as normall) and has a 20k stack
Hero pushes all in

2.Tounament - blinds 100/200

Hero KQo in late position with a 4k stack
VIllan is a reg player and super aggresive raises to 600 with his 7k stack
Hero pushes all in.

3. Cash game NL100
Hero KJs in late position with a stack of $230
Villan in mid position (stack $180) with a wide range makes a raises to $5
Hero raises to $15
flop a79 rainbow
check - check on the flop
Turn Q no flush draw
Hero bets $12

4. Cash game NL100
Hero on big blind with 33 stack $120
Villan in late bets $3 (LAG player) stack $100
Small blind re-raises to $9 and has fairly weak range
Hero re-raises to $18


i think just normal played

     
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Posted by B1gfoot:
I said if you dont understand the move then thats fine im a nit, perhaps i should not have said understand and used agree.


Perhaps yes, that would sound differently then.

I have my opinion and that is what I said, I also explained it aswell as Doomdy and I have to agree with everything he wrote about that hand.

For those who think its ok move - that might be the reason they are still playing freerolls after years of poker practice.

Just my 2 pence and im not looking for a fight lol. We just have different wiews of tourney poker.

     
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