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Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
Posted by mahdrof: TAG vs LAG
This thread has had a few good exchanges from both camps and this is what makes this forum really interesting.
Kinogomes, maybe take a break or try a different variant of poker or such. Jovi started a thread about Rummy games a while ago, I tried it, liked it and now play semi-regularly. Keep it fun! Try MTT or SNG for a while, try anything! More sex with your girlfriend! More beer! More beer and sex! Go on vacation with your girlfriend have sex drink beer have a nice cigar etc. etc. But if poker isn't fun anymore you def. need to change something. GL!
Defenitevely i need to change my PC position heheheheehe, i think its ggiving me bad luck. I likew all the thing you said, we must have a life outside poker (and i have a life), i dont live for the game, but in other way i like too much the game and i know i comited some bad things to stay home one time or another just to play.
In my opinion i need to figure out why i make a deposit and in the first 2 days i run good and after that i start to run bad and end busting my account. Getting emotional when i start to loose loots of time sin a row doesnt help me at all, cause the tilt doesnt let me think correctly in order to stop and make a break.
I think the main difference between North Euopean players and south European players its that North European are more cold people doesnt live theyr lifes so emotionally like us in the south. If you get too emotional you have hard time to accept the things your doing wrong.
Iam liking alot this thread too (not because i started it), but because we are all making this thread a good place to debate ideas friendly, thats the real purpose of it.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
Don't say the books you read doesnt work because they do. Now you are playing better and you have that notion. If you start playing real (not online) i believe you would notice some improvement at your game. Some online players dont care about money value, so they play anyhow without caring about cards. But if we start caring much about money, than we cant succeed also, because the amount involved, when bigger, becomes a rational problem to us. Perhaps if you play bigger amounts, although taking more risks to your pockets, you would notice diferences in the game. But there are crazy "rich" players everywhere, in every tables, online and real, that just dont mind about doing some crazy call "just to see what you had" and end up giving a bad beat on you!!!
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
@doomdy, nope stats go on forever to figure out true win rate you will use all your stats not just the last 12 months. Me with my 3-4/100 makes me a good solid reg player at NL100, those with 10/100 are the elite players, you wont find me offten sat with them, one because it not good for me and two because there are not too many about, they tend to move up stakes. There are plenty of good solid LAG players too you know and they can beat me too, now Im losing to everyone LOL. To get a true understandin id have to have played the same amount at the same stakes at the same tables, there are people who win more than me with a lower win rate!! Do you understand? So what counts the money or the win rate you confuse me? If I half my tables I could get a win rate of say 10/100 or I can stay the same and win 5/100 at the end of a year I have won the same amount. I actually no longer get what your point is, I said I prey on TAG ABC players and you start trying to tell me they are beating me because the elite players have a higher win rate!! If we went on majority then more TAG players win, why because there are more of them, however again lets go with the majority, most of TAG and LAG players are losers. Ipsolollypopfacto.
@kinogomes your right, here we dont do emotion, its a sign of weakness, I win a million or my dog dies my expression is the same, then again I killed him so bad example. Perhaps you are on to something, our heartless ways might make us better suited to play poker. Try some reverse physiology on yourself, get upset when you win and smile and giggle when you lose, I think your fortune might reverse.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
@kinogomes your right, here we dont do emotion, its a sign of weakness, I win a million or my dog dies my expression is the same, then again I killed him so bad example. Perhaps you are on to something, our heartless ways might make us better suited to play poker. Try some reverse physiology on yourself, get upset when you win and smile and giggle when you lose, I think your fortune might reverse.
I dont think that being emotional is an example of weakness, but your right in one point ifg you show too much emotions of your bad beats in the tables (per example insulting your oponents) they will see as a chance to take more from you cause that shows no tilt control. I can give some examples of winners at poker that are very emotional, maybe Phill Hellmuth its a little bit overrated but Ziigmund per example he is very emotional at the tables but still he is very respected and very good player, Tony G is another example but in this case i think he tries to get very emotional to tilt the other players not him.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 2805
lucky is a part off the game but its only take 5-10 % over one was knowledge and all know if u put all in with poket pair lower then A some who call u if he is good clever player will have in hand a so he try to claim his luck ? no he playing clever game and strong a with good kicker allways calling all in rises knowledge was the bigest power o ff playing poker
bingopoker lovers never won any tournament they allways run out at the bubble good luck all
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
i have another example that happened me today of a hand vthat happens to me more than probably should be.
People says poker is changing, but its the players that makes de games changing, most of the players loomk at the hands i loose and they say dont worry try to play against these kind of players that in the long run youll get your money. But its not happening, and i keep getting all of this crap over and over.
this hand iam showing is about a hand i played today and a guy called my pre flop 3xbb and shoved my pot bet in the flop. What happened next?? Better take a luck.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Your hands of beats is getting hilarious This is not even close to a beat Its called POKER This guy had more outs then you problably think, and remember preflop its just a flip.
Postflop you bet pot, then he shoves.... Wot you think you must do in that spot
First learn poker before your complaining about beats please
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
Posted by doomdy: Your hands of beats is getting hilarious This is not even close to a beat Its called POKER This guy had more outs then you problably think, and remember preflop its just a flip.
Postflop you bet pot, then he shoves.... Wot you think you must do in that spot
First learn poker before your complaining about beats please
HEHEHEHEEH this is not a beat, right.
His shove was easy call, easy call, EASY CALL, and the out he had doesnt mean much after he get that flop. What am i suppose to do??? Fold the best hand after flop?????? WOULD YOU?????? His probability to win was 25% in turn and 12% in the river. To fold the better hand aafter the flop all time cause they all get unexpected runner runner better stay home and watching a movie. He paids all time against the odds, but anyway iam the only one who needs to play, when a somebody like you appears here praising this kind of play.
this thread seems to be becoming a sad story , a long sad story we can only tell you what we think, maybe you are cursed as you say, dont pass it on, please!
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by kinogomes:
Posted by doomdy: Your hands of beats is getting hilarious This is not even close to a beat Its called POKER This guy had more outs then you problably think, and remember preflop its just a flip.
Postflop you bet pot, then he shoves.... Wot you think you must do in that spot
First learn poker before your complaining about beats please
HEHEHEHEEH this is not a beat, right.
His shove was easy call, easy call, EASY CALL, and the out he had doesnt mean much after he get that flop. What am i suppose to do??? Fold the best hand after flop?????? WOULD YOU?????? His probability to win was 25% in turn and 12% in the river. To fold the better hand aafter the flop all time cause they all get unexpected runner runner better stay home and watching a movie. He paids all time against the odds, but anyway iam the only one who needs to play, when a somebody like you appears here praising this kind of play.
Deffo not an easy call, thats problably why you dont make profit if you think this is an easy call (no offend). Easy call with only 2nd pair Get real.... How can you say fold better hand? Can you look into oponents whole cards?
And yes i wud problably fold this to his shove, but hey i am tight nit so how do i know??
I say again learn how to play poker before over and over going into complain about badbeats. Learn from hands instead of complaining about how bad oponents are, its completely clear to me you dont understand the concept of poker and again thats no offend just a fact.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
Posted by kinogomes: i have another example that happened me today of a hand vthat happens to me more than probably should be.
People says poker is changing, but its the players that makes de games changing, most of the players loomk at the hands i loose and they say dont worry try to play against these kind of players that in the long run youll get your money. But its not happening, and i keep getting all of this crap over and over.
this hand iam showing is about a hand i played today and a guy called my pre flop 3xbb and shoved my pot bet in the flop. What happened next?? Better take a luck.
I suspect that he misread your hand, shoved to get you off and got lucky. Probably had you on AK, and figured you were just c-betting and shoving would fold you. Then runner runner straight and another bad beat. Overall for average players I think getting lucky cards should cancel out the bad beats and what you are left with should show your general poker aptitude. GL
BTW How is my suggestion for more beer turning out?
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
Posted by midnight1954: this thread seems to be becoming a sad story , a long sad story we can only tell you what we think, maybe you are cursed as you say, dont pass it on, please!
This thread is not a long sad story, and not a whining thread, this threead is to discuss lucky player vs players that really understand poker. Not considering a good player, i consider myself as an unluvky player in most of the situactions.
I dont intend to offend anyne and Doomdy knows a have lot of respect for him causde he always been very nice and gives good advices in the forum.
But one thing is one thing and other thing is other thing, saying that i need to improove my game and saying that i dont understand poker is another thing very different.
the hands i put in this thread are not for whining but to give example and everybody can put loads of hands saying of the contrary of me (the hands that the smart player wins against bad players).
This example in my opinion is never a bad call. Why because i have much more outs obvious than him, i know the odds i cant count them. We cant not expect that everybody that calls our raises flop always biggest pair all time. I think i readed very well the table and the opponent shove. Anyway he got runner runner and won the hand.
If anyone have a better idea how to play this flop better than this please tell expose your argument (without knowing the turn and river of course).
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Romania
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 178
Kinogomes, your 700 hands played = 0 I play more hands per day. You can take a look at your game maybe after 10 000 hands but the sample is still too small. If your are shortstacking (as I see in that jpg) you should multitable and play 60k hands per month on average. That's what real shortstackers do. At these sample sizes nobody can complain about luck as everything evens out.
If you play with big stacks then I still recommend playing at 4 tables at least. You might think it will get you into trouble but you will get into more trouble if you get bored and start playing in marginal situations where you will lose lots of money.
What happened in that jpg is standard for a shortstack. Raise, contibet, post-flop you have middlepair so you shove it in and hope for the best. He had 2 backdoor straight draws so any 8,9, K, A that appear will help him, plus all Tens and J. If you use a calculator you'll see he has about 30% chance of winning. That means he will win 1 out of 3 similar situations. You can't complain about bad luck here as this happens every day. As a shortstacker the down and upswings are big.
Also, why are you playing at NL10? Play at NL5 until your bankroll is high enough. For playing bigstacked it should be minimum 200$, but I wouldn't feel comfortable. For shortstacks it should be 100$ but if you notice it's going down then you have to lower the limit. Play at NL5 until you have no problems beating it and then come back to NL10.
The books you mentioned reading are unheard. Sklansky, Brunson, Caro should be your priority. Once your read their bibles you can start with other authors like Phil Gordon perhaps. There's also lots of material to be red on the internet.
On short term luck is king but on the long term knowledge is key. If you are still not a winning player after many years then you have to identify the leaks in your game. Poker is a game of small edges and every little detail matters. It's hard to discover them on your on so you should require many hand evaluations.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 998
Posted by BadeaCelRau: Kinogomes, your 700 hands played = 0 I play more hands per day. You can take a look at your game maybe after 10 000 hands but the sample is still too small. If your are shortstacking (as I see in that jpg) you should multitable and play 60k hands per month on average. That's what real shortstackers do. At these sample sizes nobody can complain about luck as everything evens out.
If you play with big stacks then I still recommend playing at 4 tables at least. You might think it will get you into trouble but you will get into more trouble if you get bored and start playing in marginal situations where you will lose lots of money.
What happened in that jpg is standard for a shortstack. Raise, contibet, post-flop you have middlepair so you shove it in and hope for the best. He had 2 backdoor straight draws so any 8,9, K, A that appear will help him, plus all Tens and J. If you use a calculator you'll see he has about 30% chance of winning. That means he will win 1 out of 3 similar situations. You can't complain about bad luck here as this happens every day. As a shortstacker the down and upswings are big.
Also, why are you playing at NL10? Play at NL5 until your bankroll is high enough. For playing bigstacked it should be minimum 200$, but I wouldn't feel comfortable. For shortstacks it should be 100$ but if you notice it's going down then you have to lower the limit. Play at NL5 until you have no problems beating it and then come back to NL10.
The books you mentioned reading are unheard. Sklansky, Brunson, Caro should be your priority. Once your read their bibles you can start with other authors like Phil Gordon perhaps. There's also lots of material to be red on the internet.
On short term luck is king but on the long term knowledge is key. If you are still not a winning player after many years then you have to identify the leaks in your game. Poker is a game of small edges and every little detail matters. It's hard to discover them on your on so you should require many hand evaluations.
First i dont see where he had 30% as i already said he had 25% to win turn and 12% to river me. I think your a little bit misreading what i said. I was playng an cap nl10 table. I never play short, always play mid stack or full stack (doesnt feel comfortable pushing all ins with mid pair pre flop). I made 3bb pre flop wih he called, and in the flop i did bet pot and he shoved me out of the air. The only thing i complain is that he shoved and got lucky. Nobody on his sense playing poker shoves such marginal hand without hit flop.
the books i was talking:
Easy game vol1 & 2 are written by mathew Siedman 52 great poker tips is written by lou krieger
these 2 guys are in the top of the best books made with poker content. I doesnt say that they are the best, but they are very good, and the books are easy to undersatand the game.
Maybe knowledge is the key, but if your a break even player lucky is what can put you up or down.
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Romania
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 178
Use a Equilator and see that JT has about 30% winrate in that case.
In the hand AK vs 55, where is the bad luck? You must be kidding... so you ran into a set and the guy trapped you. It happens daily and that's why tournaments suck. Once you run into one, you're in a very dangerous spot. You should bet more, like 4x when you don't have position, so players after you don't see the flop cheaply. If that guy with 8k chips is willing to invest 10% of his stack with a marginal hand just to see a flop then he's a fish. Post-flop you don't have to bet that much, especially on a harmless board like that which doesn't show any draws. By betting 1100 in a 1300 pot you're just scaring weaker hands like QQ, JJ, TT, 88 etc. Kx will call 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot and the sets will probably try to trap you by check/raising. You inflated the pot too much and got committed.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by BadeaCelRau: Kinogomes, your 700 hands played = 0 I play more hands per day. You can take a look at your game maybe after 10 000 hands but the sample is still too small. If your are shortstacking (as I see in that jpg) you should multitable and play 60k hands per month on average. That's what real shortstackers do. At these sample sizes nobody can complain about luck as everything evens out.
If you play with big stacks then I still recommend playing at 4 tables at least. You might think it will get you into trouble but you will get into more trouble if you get bored and start playing in marginal situations where you will lose lots of money.
What happened in that jpg is standard for a shortstack. Raise, contibet, post-flop you have middlepair so you shove it in and hope for the best. He had 2 backdoor straight draws so any 8,9, K, A that appear will help him, plus all Tens and J. If you use a calculator you'll see he has about 30% chance of winning. That means he will win 1 out of 3 similar situations. You can't complain about bad luck here as this happens every day. As a shortstacker the down and upswings are big.
Also, why are you playing at NL10? Play at NL5 until your bankroll is high enough. For playing bigstacked it should be minimum 200$, but I wouldn't feel comfortable. For shortstacks it should be 100$ but if you notice it's going down then you have to lower the limit. Play at NL5 until you have no problems beating it and then come back to NL10.
The books you mentioned reading are unheard. Sklansky, Brunson, Caro should be your priority. Once your read their bibles you can start with other authors like Phil Gordon perhaps. There's also lots of material to be red on the internet.
On short term luck is king but on the long term knowledge is key. If you are still not a winning player after many years then you have to identify the leaks in your game. Poker is a game of small edges and every little detail matters. It's hard to discover them on your on so you should require many hand evaluations.
This!!! A big +1 Totally spot on.
@ Kinogomes: Please read this reply cos its so 100% true, cant say it any better. No offend but you keep on crying about your beats while they are just standard poker. learn when to raise/fold preflop at wot position, know when your beat ect ect ect. In other words: Learn poker basics and stop crying about beats which arent beats but just standard poker wot happens every day. Again no offend but this crying doenst help becomeing a better pokerplayer
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by DaMessiah666: I understand you perfectly because I suffered the same as you. Then I decided to improve my play definitively or give up at all. It was a "push or fold" decision. I started studying my hands, what i did wrong, what to improve, how to read my opponents ... I don't wanted to get lucky: i only wanted to play with EV+. If I had AA against KK and i lose, for me is ok because my call is EV+. In this way, you start winning money in long run. You'll have bad swings and lucky ones but, the main thing is EV+, i.e. playing well. Good luck and study hard, it's the only one (at least, the only way i've found!)
Spot on!!! +1
Poker is about EV+ playing, but with EV+ we still can have a downswing even a very nasty 1, but with EV+ we can 100% trust we are winning in the long run with a decent sample size. Study, improve, study, improve and repaet
Ok, here you are saying you keep studying (which I think is what I am missing, BIG TIME)..but you said you never read a book in another post I asked how you do it.
We talking about videos on the Net? Just want to know how how you are building your experience.
Started looking at Cardrunners, I think that is the way to go...am I wrong?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
I've been following this thread.. Through it's stages.. I don't have much to add myself, but I will say:
As always - listen to doomdy - he speaks well, has good advice and can back up his good advise with good stats.
Try and learn from him - instead of arguing with him and defending yourself against his VALID points. You'll never grow if you just defend all your flaws - instead of seeing them and accepting the wisdom of others who have beaten them.
Joined: May '09
Location: Croatia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 20409
and what is this when donk pay all in with K 10 off on my AK h on cash game?and you guess who won this!he make small raise before flop,I make big,big reraise,he bet all in,I pay ofcourse!I see K s 10 h,I say ok its good,donk pay preflop on that!flop was 3 s 10 d Q s (I said f.. donk),turn J s,now I have straight,but he have flush draw and ofcourse on river 2 s and idiot win!and thats how idiots play and then you need knowledge?first you need luck and then knowledge!
