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Joined: Dec '09
Location: Ireland
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 389
Hi, I was playing a tourney on full tilt last night and went deep, 19players left,16 paid,$10 buy in. Sat in BB with AK off and all fold to SB who pushes all in for a little over 20 BB , he/she had a little less chips than me. I delayed as much as I could and put him on middle pair[may aswell of had 22 v AK] and decided to call. player turns over QQ for a coin flip v AK. i found it a strange move considering we were both reasonably comfortable in chip sizes but decided to take my chances andtry give myself a big stack heading towars final table as there were a lot of small stacks. needless to sayQQ held up and i left in 17th position on bubble. should I of called?
well me myself would of folded............ reason because you wernt in the money yet and only afew more players to go out b4 your in , and i wont of put my tourney life on a coin flip when your so close to cash in, if i was in the money instant call,
if you wanted to ladder up the fold was standard in the near bubble position, if you wanted to win the tourney the call was good , from the SB any raise could easily of been a steal but the allin would of made me think pocket pair as you did, you went in to the coinflip in good shape so thats as good as it gets. with a 10$ buy in the bubble payout wasnt that big wining the tourney would of been, I reckon if that AK had held up you would of gave yourself a chance of wining or at least final table.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
It doesnt mean that you gonna be min cash if you fold that sort of hands. If you had good stack and guy before you goes all in then you had to know that he have a pair. Probably better then TT. In MTT tourneys in situations where is very dangerous to play (close to cash) people like to go all in on QQ KK JJ even TT to rid themselves of responsibility. And if your read was that he had exactly that there is no way that you should call that. That is coin flip even he is small favorite, so why to risk to be busted on bubble? If that guy had half of your chip stack I would say that was good call but this...I think it was bad call...
Posted by jovicakralj: It doesnt mean that you gonna be min cash if you fold that sort of hands. If you had good stack and guy before you goes all in then you had to know that he have a pair. Probably better then TT. In MTT tourneys in situations where is very dangerous to play (close to cash) people like to go all in on QQ KK JJ even TT to rid themselves of responsibility. And if your read was that he had exactly that there is no way that you should call that. That is coin flip even he is small favorite, so why to risk to be busted on bubble? If that guy had half of your chip stack I would say that was good call but this...I think it was bad call...
sure as you and doz said the fold was ABC so the cointoss was a gamble the result this time a loss, but he could of been making that play with anything and as I was not on the table I dont know how the player had been acting beforehand, sure looking back getting in the money is standard play STG or tourney, but I would of made the call,, I made a similar call in a tourney not long ago and LOST against 88 , but I would make the same call again, AK in a coinflip will do me,
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
The first thing coming to mind after reading your first sentence is: 19 players, 16 paid, never go all-in before get in the prizes field. But you have AK, considered by a lot of pros as the best hand,even better than AA for many. Thinking about the hand, i think you have made a good call, although loosing. Thinking about strategy, being in your position you could have folded everything, or at lest not risking too much tull reaching the prizes, but that wouldnt be normal. Ok, you would have received a prize, but perhaps you could have ended up in the first 16 with a couple of BB's, what for? The second place is the first of the loosers! When one plays, one should always think about the possibilities of reaching first prize, not the 16th prize. Next time it will be better...
------------ The first thing coming to mind after reading your first sentence is: 19 players, 16 paid, never go all-in before get in the prizes field. But you have AK, considered by a lot of pros as the best hand,even better than AA for many. Thinking about the hand, i think you have made a good call, although loosing. Thinking about strategy, being in your position you could have folded everything, or at lest not risking too much tull reaching the prizes, but that wouldnt be normal. Ok, you would have received a prize, but perhaps you could have ended up in the first 16 with a couple of BB's, what for? The second place is the first of the loosers! When one plays, one should always think about the possibilities of reaching first prize, not the 16th prize. Next time it will be better...
Posted by dozn01: yes midnight but werent you in the money b4 you call thou
yes this is true and it was a freeroll and I did say if it waqs bigger money my thinking might be different, but I still think I would call with the AK
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Standard call, bubble or not it doesnt matter, play2win get u so much more profit in the long run versus play2cash. 100% call, even with less, AQ instant call, even AJ might be callable here. Players are far to tight during the bubble. Winning this flip make u top5 maybe even top3, there is the money, there is no money at the bubble. If we bust no problem we then ust start up a new tourey and try again.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
Posted by doomdy: Standard call, bubble or not it doesnt matter, play2win get u so much more profit in the long run versus play2cash. 100% call, even with less, AQ instant call, even AJ might be callable here. Players are far to tight during the bubble. Winning this flip make u top5 maybe even top3, there is the money, there is no money at the bubble. If we bust no problem we then ust start up a new tourey and try again.
Play2win instant call no doubt.
play too cash mostly isnt worth it except its a $1million guaranted tourny
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
I still cant understand why some of you think that he should take coin flip here? He had healthy stack! And it is obvious that if someone goes all in and he have healthy stack he have strong pair! So you will be small dog... You are saying that if he folded that hand he would lose chance to be 1st on that tournament? I dont think so! If he was short stack that would be definitely all in but he wasn't. I know that is hard to fold AK in that situation but if image of that guy was tight and if he didnt do all ins often then that hand should be fold.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
Posted by jovicakralj: I still cant understand why some of you think that he should take coin flip here? He had healthy stack! And it is obvious that if someone goes all in and he have healthy stack he have strong pair! .
because 16th place isnt worth it, it feels like losing anyways if you dont reach top 5. what do you get as 16th ? bit more than your buyin? reaching once top 3 is like cash 10 times in the money. its not obvious that he has a strong pair (ok this time he did) but normaly thats the time when you try to steal blinds.
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by doomdy: Standard call, bubble or not it doesnt matter, play2win get u so much more profit in the long run versus play2cash. 100% call, even with less, AQ instant call, even AJ might be callable here. Players are far to tight during the bubble. Winning this flip make u top5 maybe even top3, there is the money, there is no money at the bubble. If we bust no problem we then ust start up a new tourey and try again.
Play2win instant call no doubt.
yep def call feck folding as doomdy says play to win not to cash and people push with alsorts in a blind battle
Midnight I would fold purely because AK is not even as good as a pair unless it hits simple as that. ESP as u were in a good situation. IF u were SS then its a snap call but with a big stack u can wait for a better situation
he was average stack at best going by the OP , an argument can be made for fold and call, but taking into consideration the buy in reaching the bubble was no great shakes, only win or top 3 made a good profit,it comes down to do you want to win and take your chance with the premium hand or fold and wait for a better position with a similar hand, what better position can you have for a possible double up with 17 left and holding AK against one player ,any pair lower than kk its a coinflip perhaps even slightly in your favour , I for one would take my shot and hope for the double up giving me the stack to do some bullying or at the very least a cushion giving me more time to wait for another premium starting hand,
but maybe thats why am on my worst loseing streak for some time ,, lol,,,, roi-6 ,,, down 240$,,lol,, and scope has me on tilt , the big orange fish be next!!
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Posted by Almonds: like AA mabye
yes but the AA would have to be suited or you would have to fold that 2
Edited by midnight1954 (09 February 2011 @ 18:20 GMT)
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by jovicakralj: I still cant understand why some of you think that he should take coin flip here? He had healthy stack! And it is obvious that if someone goes all in and he have healthy stack he have strong pair!
Why thats obvious In this spot being SB folding to me i am pushing so many hands, not only AK, AA, KK, QQ. For example i am pushing KQ KJ AQ AJ AT, 22+, even QTs K9s stuff like that i am pushing here. You play2cash and thats fine for you and deffo EV+ play, i play2win which is also EV+ and makes me more money then play2cash. You cash more then me, I cash bigger average.
In this spot being SB folding to me i am pushing so many hands, not only AK, AA, KK, QQ. For example i am pushing KQ KJ AQ AJ AT, 22+, even QTs K9s stuff like that i am pushing here. You play2cash and thats fine for you and deffo EV+ play, i play2win which is also EV+ and makes me more money then play2cash. You cash more then me, I cash bigger average.
