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  20-Mar-11, 00:52   #1
would you have called this hand ? 0 
mrnugger 

Joined: Feb '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 751
sorry for the language ( part of it in dutch ) as some people get offended by it but
just would like to know if this was just a bad call by me or just bad luck .


PokerStarsspel #59479376736: Toernooi #412010866, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 20/03/2011 1:43:49 CET [19/03/2011 20:43:49 ET]
Tafel '412010866 10' 9-max Plaats #4 is de button
Plaats 1: pequea13 (3016 in chips)
Plaats 2: xato4 (12716 in chips)
Plaats 3: cherrinson (5040 in chips)
Plaats 4: grizlock (9778 in chips)
Plaats 5: mrnugger (12804 in chips)
Plaats 6: durkahdurkah (9510 in chips)
Plaats 7: salamadar (13732 in chips)
Plaats 8: JoeDirtta (18430 in chips)
Plaats 9: thanospok (10460 in chips)
pequea13: zet de ante 25
xato4: zet de ante 25
cherrinson: zet de ante 25
grizlock: zet de ante 25
mrnugger: zet de ante 25
durkahdurkah: zet de ante 25
salamadar: zet de ante 25
JoeDirtta: zet de ante 25
thanospok: zet de ante 25
mrnugger: zet small blind 125
durkahdurkah: zet big blind 250
*** GESLOTEN KAARTEN ***
Gedeeld aan mrnugger [Ad 6s]
salamadar: foldt
JoeDirtta: foldt
thanospok: foldt
pequea13: foldt
xato4: foldt
cherrinson: raiset 500 naar 750
grizlock: foldt
mrnugger: callt 625
durkahdurkah: foldt
*** FLOP *** [Kd Ks 4d]
mrnugger: checkt
cherrinson: checkt
*** TURN *** [Kd Ks 4d] King of hearts
mrnugger: checkt
cherrinson: bet 1000
mrnugger: callt 1000
*** RIVER *** [Kd Ks 4d Kh] Ace of spades
mrnugger: checkt
cherrinson: bet 3265 en is all-in
mrnugger: callt 3265
*** SHOWDOWN ***
cherrinson: toont [Kc Qh] (four of a kind, Koningen)
mrnugger: toont [Ad 6s] (een full house, Koningen over Azen)
cherrinson won 10505 van pot
*** SAMENVATTING ***
Totale pot 10505 | Rake 0
Board [Kd Ks 4d Kh As]
Plaats 1: pequea13 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 2: xato4 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 3: cherrinson toonde [Kc Qh] en won (10505) met four of a kind, Koningen
Plaats 4: grizlock (button) foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 5: mrnugger (small blind) toonde [Ad 6s] en verloor met een full house, Koningen over Azen

Edited by mrnugger (20 March 2011 @ 00:55 GMT)


     
  20-Mar-11, 00:58   #2
  0 
texasrngr 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Romania
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 43
I would have called also...There was just a slim chance into loosing this, very slim. U just got unlucky. At least that's the impression Smile. You'll receive the revenge in some way, even if not on the same player,when u least expect it. Have patience Smile

     
  20-Mar-11, 01:38   #3
  0 
Flippedchips 

Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2087
call all day long on the river calling the bb then the raise pre flop is a bit dodgy but HU not the worst people raise with alot in a limped pot and A6 is not to bad just to see how it gos thats it the river call you cant put him on quads, it looks like a bluff to take the pot or you have the same hand you have to call it was not much either but late in a tourney bubble the FT im calling my whole chip stack there just unlucky pre flop is the only thing but you were ahead pre so really not that bad but ul anyway Thumbs Up

     
  20-Mar-11, 03:05   #4
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1885
Would have called the river definitely but you should never have got that far. Fold preflop in my opinion. Yes he's in late position and could be raising fairly loosely but with A 6 you'll never know where you are when you hit the ace. You're out of position too.
So you call and hit nothing. By the turn you haven't improved but you assume your ace kicker is good. You're losing to most aces and ofcourse middle pairs are possible but I think you try and make the hero call. Even though the river and another round of betting is still to come. If you don't give him any credit for any hand you should push him off it by going all in on the turn. You obviously weren't confident you were ahead so why call anything. Fold. By the river you were committed.

     
  20-Mar-11, 03:12   #5
  0 
JazzyJeff 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 818
I must agree completely with awood on this one, perfectly analized. It was a out
of position call and those tend to get u in trouble Cool

     
  20-Mar-11, 03:22   #6
  0 
mrnugger 

Joined: Feb '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 751
Posted by awood88:
Would have called the river definitely but you should never have got that far. Fold preflop in my opinion. Yes he's in late position and could be raising fairly loosely but with A 6 you'll never know where you are when you hit the ace. You're out of position too.
So you call and hit nothing. By the turn you haven't improved but you assume your ace kicker is good. You're losing to most aces and ofcourse middle pairs are possible but I think you try and make the hero call. Even though the river and another round of betting is still to come. If you don't give him any credit for any hand you should push him off it by going all in on the turn. You obviously weren't confident you were ahead so why call anything. Fold. By the river you were committed.


this is analized very well but in previous hands he raised BB around 3 times also , thought he was just stealing chips so it was was hard to read what he had , i made 1 mistake in my opinion and that was calling the 1.000 on the turn .

     
  20-Mar-11, 04:37   #7
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by mrnugger:
Posted by awood88:
Would have called the river definitely but you should never have got that far. Fold preflop in my opinion. Yes he's in late position and could be raising fairly loosely but with A 6 you'll never know where you are when you hit the ace. You're out of position too.
So you call and hit nothing. By the turn you haven't improved but you assume your ace kicker is good. You're losing to most aces and ofcourse middle pairs are possible but I think you try and make the hero call. Even though the river and another round of betting is still to come. If you don't give him any credit for any hand you should push him off it by going all in on the turn. You obviously weren't confident you were ahead so why call anything. Fold. By the river you were committed.


this is analized very well but in previous hands he raised BB around 3 times also , thought he was just stealing chips so it was was hard to read what he had , i made 1 mistake in my opinion and that was calling the 1.000 on the turn .


I won´t comment on the pre-flop call.
That´s a judgment call, and apparently he was stealing blinds quite often.

I think the mistake was on the turn.
You both checked the KK4 flop, nothing wrong with that.

When the K hit the turn, you should have raised maybe 700 (just under half the pot).
He than has 3 options:

1. Fold, the pot is yours
2. Raise, you know you´re in trouble and fold.
(if he had nothing he would cut his losses leaving him with 4.000+ chips)
3. Call, you know there is something wrong here. This guy is putting 1/3 of his chips in the middle (started the hand with 5.000)

The A hits on the River, and ......................you´re screwed either way... Big Smile
You would assume he had the 4 (so you beat him), or a K (not likely) and was bluffing.

Sorry, I was just "thinking" this through in the post and just realised this.

Tough call this one...

Seems to me now that the real mistake was going into the hand in the first place.
A6 out of position is a very weak hand, almost anything can hit and you just don´t know what he´s holding.
Once you were in, I would have assumed as well that he was bluffing to steal a big pot relative to his stack.
You could argue that the mistake was in calling the raise on the turn (and it was also a mistake, but an understandable one), but I think the best thing to learn from this is that the initial call, pre-flop was a mistake. You were setting yourself up for a difficult hand to play out of position.

Thinking further:
Then again, if you were holding AJ, the same would have happened, and you would have had to know to fold on the turn.

So NOW, I know what you should have done, and I will keep it in mind for myself in the future.

Here it is:

You were assuming he was stealing...a reasonable assumption with his history.
An A is not bad but the hand is weak and you are out of position, so you need to know if he is stealing before proceding.
So....in this situation, you are left with 2 viable options.

1. Fold and move on.
2. Re-raise to say, 1.250.
He needs to put another 500 chips in the pot.
If he folds, you were right and take the pot.
If he calls, you know he is holding a viable hand.

So now when that flop hits, you would have folded immediately to his raise on the turn.
Does that make sense to anyone else?

Conclusion:
I would have folded.
But even if I were holding AJ, I would have called and been in trouble out of position for the rest of the hand with the same result.

So....once you decide to play the hand, the best option is to raise, and get a feel for what he´s holding.

I must say that by analysing hands like these, I am starting to get an understanding of why the High Stakes players play agressively when they DO decide to go into a hand.
It´s all about information, and how to get it. Big Smile

Please comment, I would like to know what you think.

     
  20-Mar-11, 04:54   #8
  0 
Flippedchips 

Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2087
i agree but did you no notice he had a boat on the river awood?
its a good point from jack to if your going to play the hand should of raised to i think but as said A6 is not great in your position or even reraised preflop if hes playing alot of hands put him to the test 3 bet him looks like you have a monster to with the limp and if hes playing alot of hands good chance he cant call and if he does well you have A6 not hard to get away from Smile

Edited by Flippedchips (20 March 2011 @ 05:13 GMT)


     
  20-Mar-11, 06:28   #9
  0 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 6704
I would not have called preflop. I would not have called after the turn.

At the river it is a setup. Of cause we have to call here.

     
  20-Mar-11, 06:48   #10
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 6482
I compeltely agree with IslandJack regarding the call on the flop and the action on the turn.. IMHO you played the turn terribly and was defintely the biggest mistake.. Given no info on villain obv fold pre - but as IslandJack said - you had your reasons for that call - so OK. (as it was you were slightly ahead pre so good call I guess).

On the river I've got a pretty bad feeling.. it feels like quads IMO (maybe thats just cause I've been seeing and getting a LOT of quads in last week) Still though, chips go in on the river every time. There is no possibility for fold here.

     
  20-Mar-11, 10:49   #11
  0 
Hajinnho 

Joined: Jan '10
Location: Germany
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1379
calling the river of course is fine here... i am not sure about the preflop action. i guess that´s something you need to know something about your opponent for. But of course there was the possibility to get out of it very early Blink

     
  20-Mar-11, 11:15   #12
  0 
BMWman 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 753
Posted by awood88:
Would have called the river definitely but you should never have got that far. Fold preflop in my opinion. Yes he's in late position and could be raising fairly loosely but with A 6 you'll never know where you are when you hit the ace. You're out of position too.
So you call and hit nothing. By the turn you haven't improved but you assume your ace kicker is good. You're losing to most aces and ofcourse middle pairs are possible but I think you try and make the hero call. Even though the river and another round of betting is still to come. If you don't give him any credit for any hand you should push him off it by going all in on the turn. You obviously weren't confident you were ahead so why call anything. Fold. By the river you were committed.


No idea why you was in that hand to begin with. A6 off suit, I never would have called after the flop. You didn't have top pair, all you had was a kicker. Why I am very cautious to call an A with no good kicker.

     
  20-Mar-11, 11:41   #13
  0 
jovicakralj 

Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 2087
Its bad call preflop for sure but on river...nothing you can do about it. He would make that move with any A here too. Its hard to put player on quards. Anyway, good raise by him at end. He put you on A and he made right move...

     
  20-Mar-11, 12:39   #14
  0 
JazzyJeff 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 818

Ok mrnugger if he was stealing all the time, a preflop call could be justified.
Then Jack's analization is correct, sometimes a raise can give u lots of info on
what your oponent is holding. Still too bad, i wish u less bad luck the next time Cool

     
  20-Mar-11, 12:44   #15
  0 
vandar 
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 31
I never would have called after the flop. You didn't have top pair, all you had was a kicker Thumbs Down

     
  20-Mar-11, 14:40   #16
  -1 
mrnugger 

Joined: Feb '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 751
Posted by BMWman:

No idea why you was in that hand to begin with. A6 off suit, I never would have called after the flop. You didn't have top pair, all you had was a kicker. Why I am very cautious to call an A with no good kicker.


nothing personal but your opinion does not matter for me after calling me a moron , i don't reply on your posts no more also , so please keep this in mind for future . thx for understanding .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


As about jacks analizing ,
yeah probably i needed to make a raise to have more info but on the other hand even when i was holding AA i would have lost this hand .
still don't believe it was a bad call preflop with the guys historie ( probably trying steel blinds ) as it was heads-up against him and A 6 is not a terrible hand heads-up , the turn call was a wrong move from me but honestly i did not expect hime having a K or even a high card and that was the reason why i called the turn . somehowe i was expecting him to go all in anyway as i thought that he was just looking for chips to be in the prizes as we was coming near to the money .
He went up about 1.500 - 2.000 chips with raising preflop in previoust rounds so i believed that it was a bit all of nothing for him and in most cases it is all for them .
should have knowing better but in simular situation ( heads-up and near to the money and me being medium stack ) i should call 3 times raise preflop with A 6 again , no doubt about that .


Edited by mrnugger (20 March 2011 @ 14:50 GMT)


     
  20-Mar-11, 15:03   #17
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1885
I think that saying you would have lost with AJ or AA is irrelevant. There are some hands that are unavoidable and this is not one of them. If you only lose the hands that are unavoidable then you are a good player but if you lose hands you could get away from as well, it's obvious what happens longterm.

I still think that the call preflop is bad. Not cos you didn't know you were ahead but cos even with your information the hand is dangerous. I repeat what I said earlier. You are trying to make the hero call all the way through. By this I mean, you are trying to prove he is a donk, trying to prove you can outplay him, that he has nothing but you don't think about what you have yourself, which is weak against any 4.

If you can justify preflop cos you are ahead you cannot justify the turn. It's a case where even though we are sure our opponent has air, we cannot call cos we know they are going all-in on the river. If he was short-stack you could call but this is too risky for your stack. If he was as loose as you say, a safer opportunity to take his chips would come around soon enough.

     
  20-Mar-11, 15:06   #18
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6714
I guess its all been said, cant fold on the river, but should not have made it that far, for me If I think this guy is stealing, then he must be getting away with some, nothing wrong in that, but Id guess he knows when to fold, so when he made his IYO steal bet you should not have let hime see a flop, Depending on whats been going on, I might have just gone AI on him, stop him from steeling anymore, at least of gave him a raise.
sorry mrnugger, but it is a bad call pre, you are calling a guy and have no clue to what he is holding, out of position, you are left with 2 choices here IMO raise pre or fold pre. after that it was down to lady luck

     
  20-Mar-11, 16:18   #19
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by awood88:
I think that saying you would have lost with AJ or AA is irrelevant. There are some hands that are unavoidable and this is not one of them. If you only lose the hands that are unavoidable then you are a good player but if you lose hands you could get away from as well, it's obvious what happens longterm.


That´s not really the point of why I was including a much stronger hand such as AJ awood.
I have never really analysed hand histories, and have now decided that it is CRUCIAL if I want to move on.

This was a very strange board, and I wanted to include a stronger hand, to see if it could have been played differently in that case.
In this case we are talking about a repeated blind stealer, a weak early position hand, and to top it off, a very dangerous flow of events.
So i just wanted to know what I would do in a similar situation with a much stronger hand. Would I end up in the same situation?
Calling the raise, the answer is definitely yes.
So next step, is there a way to avoid this, always!
The answer is again, yes.
Calling this raise is a bad move either way. So then I move on to understand what the best way to play this hand is in ANY case.
The conclusion is obviously a re-raise, as I can see confirmed from most.

So, how do we stop this blind-stealer?
He might have been stealing for 10 hands in a row, and you might have gotten a long run of worse hands for that whole time on the SB.
So when you get a "slightly" better hand, than say 10-3 or Q-2, can you try?
If you are going to try, re-raise, whether you are holding AJ or A6.

Now that I´m starting to effectively analyse hands, I want to get as much information from the "thinking" process as I can.
This way I did. Big Smile


     
  20-Mar-11, 16:38   #20
  0 
mrnugger 

Joined: Feb '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 751
Awood , bigfoot and island thx for the advice and analazing the hand in a clear and understandeble way , it seems more clearly for me now that i needed to raise at least some chips preflop .
Awoods post has most impressed me and when you write about the hero call i can recognize it in the hand i played .
i believe that's just the thing that has happened .

     
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