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  2-Jun-11, 15:09   #1
AK pre flop (cash tables) +1 
LooseKiddie 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Poland
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 382
I'm starting this thread because AK is IMO one of the most problematic starting hands for me when it comes to cash games and we have a raise before our turn. I think I'll write down equity of AK and AKs vs. ranges by 5%, 10%, 15% etc. because sometimes I've trouble when I'm facing a raise with this hand. Why? I think we will face a 4-bet quite often and then we have a decision to make. Calling isn't an option, so we can either raise or fold.

But is there any point in 3-betting a decent player with AK? As I said IMO calling isn't an option (maybe sometimes, but those would be very rare hands), so we have to raise or fold. Even facing some 25% range we have like 60% equity, so it's almost a coin flip. When it comes to good ranges for openraise from MP and EP we are just a few % favourites or we are few % behind.

How are you playing your AK vs. a raise? I think I should fold my AK more in those situations, how about you?

     
  2-Jun-11, 16:01   #2
  +1 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6714
Im not putting down AK in a ring game, so it has to be raise, against them players yes you might end up in a flip, but that fine.
If you dont raise, then them good players will spot that you flat call with AK, were does that leave you?, it leaves them in a situation that they can bully the hell out of you.
Facing a 4-bet is fine, you can jam with AK Smile
So" is there any point in 3-betting a decent player with AK" yes, the aim in poker is to get them to fold when you have the worst hand and extract value when you have the best.
Its player dependent on how any hand should be played, but as a rule I raise re-raise and go AI with AK, I try my best to get a huge pot.
Unless you have a full table going AI then there is almost no reason to fold AK.

     
  2-Jun-11, 16:07   #3
  +1 
shokaku 

Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 6690
Depends on the game (full ring or shorthanded) and the position and type of the player. In a full ring game a call is no problem, but shorthanded i would allways put in a 3bet unless the raiser is a total nit.

     
  2-Jun-11, 18:56   #4
  +1 
LooseKiddie 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Poland
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 382
Posted by B1gfoot:
Im not putting down AK in a ring game, so it has to be raise, against them players yes you might end up in a flip, but that fine.
If you dont raise, then them good players will spot that you flat call with AK, were does that leave you?, it leaves them in a situation that they can bully the hell out of you.
Facing a 4-bet is fine, you can jam with AK Smile
So" is there any point in 3-betting a decent player with AK" yes, the aim in poker is to get them to fold when you have the worst hand and extract value when you have the best.
Its player dependent on how any hand should be played, but as a rule I raise re-raise and go AI with AK, I try my best to get a huge pot.
Unless you have a full table going AI then there is almost no reason to fold AK.


I think that I've said somewhere in the first post that call isn't an option here Blink I'm just saying, that when you 3-bet and get a 4-bet in response then you are almost 100% sure that it will be a flip (of course I'm talking about a hand when we face a raise from EP and sometimes MP). They will fold the rest of hands, so it leaves you with some tiny profit from 3-5bb open raise, depending on how much the villain will raise (still we are talking about standard, tight players) and all in flips or 10bb+ loses when you'll fold to a 4-bet (which in most hands will mean you're an underdog in a coinflip). I've just finished my 2nd session today and I've noticed that I'm still playing my AK with 3-bets etc., but here I'm just wondering if it's profitable, of course - once again - vs. decent players in a long run. We are playing to extract value as you said and is there a value in coinflips? Hell no Smile Coinflips happen, but in cash games you have to avoid them IMO, of course as long as you are underdog, flips when you're favourite are fine.

     
  2-Jun-11, 22:14   #5
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 6482
Posted by B1gfoot:
Facing a 4-bet is fine, you can jam with AK Smile


Depends on your opponents - with some stakes / opponents a 4-bet almost always means AA/KK and it is correct to lay down QQ/AK - but facing more aggressive opponents who 3-4bet lite it can be OK. Contrary to b1gfoots advise - I think- when in doubt - lay it down - especially if you are 150bb deep etc. shoving AK pre for 150bb+ is just bad IMO in ring or MTT.

     
  3-Jun-11, 00:15   #6
  0 
Flippedchips 

Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2087
i wrote a big thing out there but really need more info stakes, players, fullring, short handed ect ect.
would also say re raising is fine but can be sticky if they ship the rest of there chips back at you, folding is stupid thing to do and calling is fine in my eyes and see what happens on the flop. You only have A high at the end of the day, pretty good A but it aint no pair till you hit. People often get to attached to AK as if they have the nuts imo

     
  3-Jun-11, 08:16   #7
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 1242
Posted by Flippedchips:
i wrote a big thing out there but really need more info stakes, players, fullring, short handed ect ect.
would also say re raising is fine but can be sticky if they ship the rest of there chips back at you, folding is stupid thing to do and calling is fine in my eyes and see what happens on the flop. You only have A high at the end of the day, pretty good A but it aint no pair till you hit. People often get to attached to AK as if they have the nuts imo



Well I am really not as much experienced in these things as you are.
But my thought was also, why not call and see what flop will show instead of reraising or folding ?
Iam still at the beginning of my pokerplay and would like to learn so this is an interesting question to me.

     
  3-Jun-11, 14:45   #8
  0 
Arithmajik 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 1647
Pretty much in the same boat as MIGO14? Why not just call (I know you said it's not an option, but I just would like to understand why)? If you miss the flop then you should probably lay it down if not you pretty much only lose to the AA KK (unless there's a worrysome flop of course) and if they had that you were probably in for it anyway.

     
  3-Jun-11, 16:11   #9
  0 
LooseKiddie 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Poland
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 382
I think you misunderstood me Smile I mean that when we face a raise from EP or some MP1/MP2 then their range is pretty tight (when it comes to decent players) and I asked if there is a point in 3-betting them often (you can't just lay your AK down to every raise, but sometimes it's good IMO), if this is +EV. And here comes the whole "call" thing - when we face a raise and have decision to make: 3-bet, call, fold; not after a 4-bet Blink

Calling the 4-bet is an option, MIGO & you both are right, but I'm wondering how much should we 3-bet vs. pretty strong range from early positions.

     
  3-Jun-11, 16:37   #10
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6714
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by B1gfoot:
Facing a 4-bet is fine, you can jam with AK Smile


Depends on your opponents - with some stakes / opponents a 4-bet almost always means AA/KK and it is correct to lay down QQ/AK - but facing more aggressive opponents who 3-4bet lite it can be OK. Contrary to b1gfoots advise - I think- when in doubt - lay it down - especially if you are 150bb deep etc. shoving AK pre for 150bb+ is just bad IMO in ring or MTT.

Oh yer, it always depends on the villan, but this is wrong "opponents a 4-bet almost always means AA/KK" I 3-4 bet alot and the reason for doing so is pretty much as you say, everyone thinks I have AA KK, but I dont do it against the wiser player, my 4bets are nearly always aimed at a ABC player.
I used to agree with "when in doubt - lay it down" and played that way foe a while, I switch to when in doubt - find out, risk Vs reward.
BTW Im not sayng never lay down AK, and as you say putting in 150bb on (loosly said ) A high is a risk.
IMO do not fold AK pre unless you KNOW your opponent has KK or AA, wich has fairly low odds, if the raiser is extremely tight yes you can drop.
AK it is a profitable hand, There ARE times to fold it, but they are few and far between, I will only be letting AK go when faced with a TAG player UTG (in this situation)(cash games)
"But is there any point in 3-betting a decent player with AK" 100% yes, you have massive fold equity.
You will face flips, thats for sure, thats part of poker, but what do you want to do live in fear of a flip, drop AK ever time you get 3-4 bet.
There is no harm in calling ofcause, you know what he holds, if your a good player perhaps your post flop game might be better than his, can you get him to fold 1 pair?
Cliff -- Dont fold AK pre unless you can absolutly put villian on aa,kk.



     
  3-Jun-11, 19:13   #11
  0 
LooseKiddie 

Joined: Apr '11
Location: Poland
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 382
And that last post is pretty much my thoughts Smile I don't say you have to fold it like 50% or even 30% of hands, I just noticed that I (and many other players) may overplay AK a little bit, it's indeed strong starting hand worth playing but many people are just overplaying their AK's. It's also very good hand to 3-bet other players, but I think I should be a little bit more careful when holding AK and that's also my advice to other new players. 3-bet, 4-bet, be aggressive, but also be careful Smile

     
  3-Jun-11, 20:47   #12
  +1 
vip7vip7vip 
Joined: Jan '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 167
If you dont raise, then them good players will spot that you flat call with AK, were does that leave you?, it leaves them in a situation that they can bully the hell out of you.

Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink Blink

     
  3-Jun-11, 22:06   #13
  0 
Davoodoo 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: Finland
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 1612

Shove it all in every time ... there seems like there isnt a limit how aggressive you should play bet bet bet bet ALL IN ALL IN

     
  4-Jun-11, 18:20   #14
  0 
andy5521 
Joined: Jul '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 89
I will always play AK doesnt matter who im playing if its a 4 bet then i would be worried if my opponent has a pocket pair but i would pay to see what the player has so next time i can make a better decision and also improve my game.

Aggression is a powerful tool just use it so you dont get bullied at the table, thats why i think european players are better because they are aggressive and arent scared Thumbs Up

     
  4-Jun-11, 20:23   #15
  0 
SuperNoob 

Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 4873
i think there's lot of bullying going on in ring games and AK are gud enough hands to bully someone or hitback at someone who keeps 4-betting you, of course dont make it a habit, mixup your play and like kiddie said - be careful but aggressive.

     
  4-Jun-11, 21:09   #16
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 2386
AK is a very strong hand and should be played strongly. The later you are in position the better as if you miss the flop, a continuation bet will often shake off somebody who has an okay hand. Lately though, my biggest problem with AK is somebody flopping a set and me hitting two pair with AK. Angry

     
  13-Jun-11, 08:34   #17
  0 
Dejan0001 
Joined: Dec '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 9
It depends about on hat level you play. It also depends about your opponent.Many times I have problem with donk player who have a very high VPP, more than 70%. After I go all in with AK,
they almost every time show me AA or AK and take my all stack, i talking about 10NL. If they re raise my preflop on higher level that 50NL i will ofter fold, because i know that they have good hands.
This donks are really worst, bacause you will never know what they have

     
  13-Jun-11, 09:02   #18
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 6668
Dejan, you are right, but in time you'll see that many of these guys are the one from which you grow your bankroll and poker winnings. Of course with such a high VPIP it seeme they would play almost any hand that are dealt, in the long term this is a good thing, but the bad thing is that you can't be always sure that they have a weak or good hand.
Still, you always need to keep in minf that AK are just two very strong cards, since are good connector and even better if they are suited cards in order to offer you a flush possibility. Of course you need to be very carefully if you play AK on a flop on which you don't get a pair or if you didn't have a flush or a straight draw.
What other said is very true though, preflop you need to play this hand ver aggresively, always open with it, and it someone reraise, you need to reraise too, this of course if we talk about cash games, in tournaments AL is also a good hand to go all in preflop depending on the time of the tournament Smile

     
  13-Jun-11, 12:47   #19
  0 
DaCapo71 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Germany
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 2205
With AK i only call any raise and i do a open raise in any position. It´s the best way to make a continuation bet or when i only call i have the chance to see the flop with a small pot and i´m not comitted.

     
  19-Jun-11, 10:48   #20
  0 
vip7vip7vip 
Joined: Jan '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 167
usualy i raise with ak if are a lot of platers i game trying to determiate some to get out from the hand and to have much biger chances to win the pot, and if you raise players will thake you serios and you have much biger chances to make a winig bluff.

     
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