What I get from all this is confirmation. I made the correct decision some time ago not to bot.When I first entertained the thought my motivation was to somehow get back at some of the sites. In the end after much research and weighing the pros and cons I came to the conclusion I should try to become a better player instead of a cheat. No amount of money won that way could ever satisfy the satisfaction I feel when I cash on my own. Besides that how could I share my successes from botting? Wouldn't be something I could brag about. Took it's time, I have managed to improve my game...the sum of the parts equal the whole. Now I just want more knowledge on how to better recognize and play against another type of opponent and is a very real threat. Any info I can gleen with regards to this topic will be an asset in the long run. Being a student of the game affords the opportunity to acquire knowledge, in this case the Devil is in the details...and so be it. BTW seperating the wheat from the chaff isn't difficult here...I just throw out all that is useless.
Joined: May '09
Location: Argentina
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 71
In order to create a winning bot you must be a VERY good poker player and a VERY good programmer. The game will not be even close to a "perfect game" if such thing exists. The only damage done to you and the only reason why bots are unfair is because the bots play for more TIME than regular players and that means that there will be less fishes in the table because the bot has cleaned them already. I wouldn't bot even if I could, I have consciousness charges playing the poker I play already.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Posted by SuperNoob: ok few more questions
1. well u said most of the bots are handicapped version bought by ppl. can u put up a % or number of good bots on sites? - as good as the programmer
2. where are bots more likely to be present? full ring/ short handed/ HU - all but mainly FR, HU is for the better programmers
3.how would u put predominant playing style of bots ( including handicapped) in % Tight aggressiv tight passive loose aggressive loose passive mainly TAG at FR
4. what are the things which most of the bots wont do? e.g. sitting in ring games with min stack check-raising min- betting flat betting preflop allins slow playing big hands weird bets - like betting 107 in 600 pot allin at flop for small pots depends on programmer, most are TAG ABC so you can figure most out 5.are bots able to change their playin style by themselves in a single session? No, only to what is programmed, but can work to your style/stats, so yes in a round about way 6. which country players are most involved in botting?what I'v said is speculation, lets go for the yanks
Posted by magatt966: Supernoob asked good question ( for you noob): I am waiting for some answers.
I will ask one myself: do you know how to built a bot for livepoker?
Phil Ivey, soon they will add realistic blinks, who knows maybe one day personality.
Kinda got bored with this thread, almost agreeing with retribution. Somethings said are somewhat wrong/contradicting no offence. Seams to me OP is a bottom of chain botter and does not know as much as he would like to know, possibly hence why no longer botting, from what I see botters do quite well, and do not need group(though plenty do group), perhaps used for what he does know then dumped, there are bots the beat pros, there are vids if you search. As for the cheating debate, its simple, any program that helps you is cheating, thought not classed by the site as so because 1 its hard to control 2 they make money. You could class it as fair if you know you both have HUDs/stats/ etc etc, but having a unfair advantage such as HUDs is cheating/botting.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
+1
by now id enjoy the dispute between retribution and the botter more than anything else. theres no particular information which you couldnt find on google your self..
1. Q well u said most of the bots are handicapped version bought by ppl. can u put up a % or number of good bots on sites?
I would estimate 5% of all bots at most.
2.Q where are bots more likely to be present?
FIXED LIMIT FULL RING. (short answer I know, but its correct)
3.Q how would u put predominant playing style of bots ( including handicapped) in %
TAG for the 95%, dynamic for the 5%. The bot where I was working on would differentiate between styles based on stats of different players(if available). Its basic style was tag.
4. Q what are the things which most of the bots wont do?
Most bots wont preflop allin, slow play big hands, randomize bet ammounts, allin preflop.
Number 1 do for most bots: Sitout when a player leaves, most will sitout when 1 or 2 players leave a full ring game, just to sit in when the room is full again. They do this because their logic is based on a full 9 plr table. The threshold for sitout is set by the botmaster, some sitout when 1 plr leaves, some when 3 leaves. But most, will sitout when 1 leaves.
5.Q are bots able to change their playin style by themselves in a single session?
Yes, the 95% would change gear after an x ammounts of minutes, where x is set by the botmaster. The 5% would do so dynamically based on stats.
6. which country players are most involved in botting?
In my group where 2 Americans, 1 german, 1 swedish guy and 2 dutch guys. I think western countrys are more involved.
If you want to know more about one of the answers, just let me know.
------------ @B1gfoot I think you are refering to pokibot, But I strongly disagree about HU being the hardest to program. Why do you think the only place where a bot beats the pros is HU? Because it is less complex. Even a neural network can be trained from scratch to learn the game @ headsup. You get allot of hands from the same player in much less time compared to FR , that way the bot can use statistics fairly quick. And if used, a neural network can train a model much much faster.
As to botters doing it all alone, stealth,stats,programming,testing etc. Thats seriously very rare, whats not rare however... are ppl claiming to have build an awesome bot and claiming to make serious money. As for your comments about me being kicked out, yes I believe I stopped being useful. The guy leading the group was some chessplaying mathwizzkid, but he was not very nice, as a person.
______________________________
If any of you think it would be usefull, maybe we could set up a room where some of you can try and play against a bot?
Not for real money ofcourse, but just to see how it plays and if you can figure out any patterns.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by jvd1986: @SuperNoob
1. Q well u said most of the bots are handicapped version bought by ppl. can u put up a % or number of good bots on sites?
I would estimate 5% of all bots at most.
2.Q where are bots more likely to be present?
FIXED LIMIT FULL RING. (short answer I know, but its correct)
3.Q how would u put predominant playing style of bots ( including handicapped) in %
TAG for the 95%, dynamic for the 5%. The bot where I was working on would differentiate between styles based on stats of different players(if available). Its basic style was tag.
4. Q what are the things which most of the bots wont do?
Most bots wont preflop allin, slow play big hands, randomize bet ammounts, allin preflop.
Number 1 do for most bots: Sitout when a player leaves, most will sitout when 1 or 2 players leave a full ring game, just to sit in when the room is full again. They do this because their logic is based on a full 9 plr table. The threshold for sitout is set by the botmaster, some sitout when 1 plr leaves, some when 3 leaves. But most, will sitout when 1 leaves.
5.Q are bots able to change their playin style by themselves in a single session?
Yes, the 95% would change gear after an x ammounts of minutes, where x is set by the botmaster. The 5% would do so dynamically based on stats.
6. which country players are most involved in botting?
In my group where 2 Americans, 1 german, 1 swedish guy and 2 dutch guys. I think western countrys are more involved.
If you want to know more about one of the answers, just let me know.
------------ @B1gfoot I think you are refering to pokibot, But I strongly disagree about HU being the hardest to program. Why do you think the only place where a bot beats the pros is HU? Because it is less complex. Even a neural network can be trained from scratch to learn the game @ headsup. You get allot of hands from the same player in much less time compared to FR , that way the bot can use statistics fairly quick. And if used, a neural network can train a model much much faster.
As to botters doing it all alone, stealth,stats,programming,testing etc. Thats seriously very rare, whats not rare however... are ppl claiming to have build an awesome bot and claiming to make serious money. As for your comments about me being kicked out, yes I believe I stopped being useful. The guy leading the group was some chessplaying mathwizzkid, but he was not very nice, as a person.
______________________________
If any of you think it would be usefull, maybe we could set up a room where some of you can try and play against a bot?
Not for real money ofcourse, but just to see how it plays and if you can figure out any patterns.
Well, this is best post so far in this tread. We have really usefull info now. Key things are: Fixed limit full, sitting out, and what they wont do. Itll be lot easier to spot bot now for sure!
------------ @ Retribution: You think this info too is not good?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jovicakralj: [QUOTE]Posted by jvd1986: @ Retribution: You think this info too is not good?
Nothing one can't find on google. Plus I find the logic a little dodgy at best.
1. Statistically, the easiest bot to program would be a short stack bot. Short stack strategy is the most ABC form of poker, and is about as unexploitable as it can get.
2. After researching the topic a bit myself, I find it highly unlikely that most bots sit Fixed Limit. A NL bot would be infinitely more profitable, and easier to code.
3. Most bot rings that are found are in eastern countries, specifically china. For that matter, most cheating period comes from china. Not trying to racially profile here, but for example I implore people to search for "Poker stars DON rings". There are literally hundreds of reports of chinese collusion rings at the dons, thats exactly why Poker Stars switched from Dons to the new 50/50 format.
I'm still not overly convinced OP is honestly interested in educating anyone. I mean he says he ran a bot that he helped design. He should be able to provide an abundance of information, information that isn't already available on a million other sites.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by retribution:
Posted by jovicakralj: [QUOTE]Posted by jvd1986: @ Retribution: You think this info too is not good?
Nothing one can't find on google. Plus I find the logic a little dodgy at best.
1. Statistically, the easiest bot to program would be a short stack bot. Short stack strategy is the most ABC form of poker, and is about as unexploitable as it can get.
2. After researching the topic a bit myself, I find it highly unlikely that most bots sit Fixed Limit. A NL bot would be infinitely more profitable, and easier to code.
3. Most bot rings that are found are in eastern countries, specifically china. For that matter, most cheating period comes from china. Not trying to racially profile here, but for example I implore people to search for "Poker stars DON rings". There are literally hundreds of reports of chinese collusion rings at the dons, thats exactly why Poker Stars switched from Dons to the new 50/50 format.
I'm still not overly convinced OP is honestly interested in educating anyone. I mean he says he ran a bot that he helped design. He should be able to provide an abundance of information, information that isn't already available on a million other sites.
WOW man!!! Why you havent started this tread??? You seem to know about bots more the boter Its like in sports. Fans always "know" more then that stupid coach
Kinda got bored with this thread, almost agreeing with retribution. Somethings said are somewhat wrong/contradicting no offence. Seams to me OP is a bottom of chain botter and does not know as much as he would like to know, possibly hence why no longer botting, from what I see botters do quite well, and do not need group(though plenty do group), perhaps used for what he does know then dumped, there are bots the beat pros, there are vids if you search. As for the cheating debate, its simple, any program that helps you is cheating, thought not classed by the site as so because 1 its hard to control 2 they make money. You could class it as fair if you know you both have HUDs/stats/ etc etc, but having a unfair advantage such as HUDs is cheating/botting.
Yes, I agree all the forms of botting is cheating, I don't use any...never have. Too old school I guess and that's just fine. I'm up for just about anything that teaches me how to improve my game as long as I can use that info myself and play on my own. I just completed a video traning MTT and SnG course that was very usefull and helps me cash in more tourneys than in the past. Once I learned the theory and practial application I nixed buying the software. The course taught me enough to see and think differently at the table, that's what was needed. This may not go over too well with some. IMO if this tread was laid out like a course starting with an Intro to botting (5 w's) up to infinity because in my former trade I was required to attend and pass courses yearly and I can learn effectively this way. Why would I want to learn this? Simply,keep ones friends close and ones enemies closer and I won't buy a bot to learn how it works. Rather use that money to boost bankrolls.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jovicakralj:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by jovicakralj: [QUOTE]Posted by jvd1986: @ Retribution: You think this info too is not good?
Nothing one can't find on google. Plus I find the logic a little dodgy at best.
1. Statistically, the easiest bot to program would be a short stack bot. Short stack strategy is the most ABC form of poker, and is about as unexploitable as it can get.
2. After researching the topic a bit myself, I find it highly unlikely that most bots sit Fixed Limit. A NL bot would be infinitely more profitable, and easier to code.
3. Most bot rings that are found are in eastern countries, specifically china. For that matter, most cheating period comes from china. Not trying to racially profile here, but for example I implore people to search for "Poker stars DON rings". There are literally hundreds of reports of chinese collusion rings at the dons, thats exactly why Poker Stars switched from Dons to the new 50/50 format.
I'm still not overly convinced OP is honestly interested in educating anyone. I mean he says he ran a bot that he helped design. He should be able to provide an abundance of information, information that isn't already available on a million other sites.
WOW man!!! Why you havent started this tread??? You seem to know about bots more the boter Its like in sports. Fans always "know" more then that stupid coach
Armchair quarterbacks ftw.
Just fyi, I was being facetious, as I generally am. I'm merely stating the obvious, that this thread isn't really worth s**t, as op isn't giving us any insight whatsoever, merely regurgitating things we could find on google ourselves.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
You can find anything on Google. I espect now from children in school to say to theirs math profesor: you are stupid man, all you are saying to us we can find on google... I could find it on google but still I never knew this things before this tread! And that is your only argument here. So STFU already!
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Ha ha, that sit out thing is an interesting tip, I think I'm going to try keep my eye out for that. Maybe even try co-ordinate some sit outs to see if the suspected bot reacts the same way all the time. Can you just report a suspected bot to the support staff? Would they easily be able to tell?
for you noob): I am waiting for some answers.
Its like in sports. Fans always "know" more then that stupid coach 
