Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
would you ever fold aces to make sure ya make the money? You have to got a very well defined objective when you start playing. When playing a double up SnG, the objective is to get the money, period. 10 in the tale, only 5 will get it. Think about one DU SnG, things aren’t famous for you, you’re 6th, there are only 6 players already, you get AA, but before you 3 guys go all in. I wouldn’t play this hand if I were you. There’s no point in playing it, the most probable thing to happen is that the game will end after that hand either you play it or not. Other situation: MTT with 3,000 field, paying for the first 500, there are only 550 left and you rank 500. In this case you have to play AA because it’s the only way you have to try to gain a couple more chips to put you guaranteed in the prizes. If you don’t play this hand, you will not play any other hand and you will just seat back waiting for what will happen for the other 50.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Ireland
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 476
personally i would never fold AA in this situation as i would be looking to double,maybe treble up depending how many are in the hand and if i lose so be it,it happens just move on and play the next game,at least i got it in good and lost 1 buy in,and if your using brm it shouldn't hurt too much
Joined: May '11
Location: Canada
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 979
only time i folded aces preflop was on the second hand of a tourney where their was already 4 all ins, i was like f**k those donkeys *clicked fold* other then that i would always raise it lol @ folding aces
Joined: Jan '11
Location: Romania
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 167
i wouldn t fold aces..each time i play by the book some donk calls but still wouldn t fold them pre flop even i know the lucky bast would get a lucky river..if wouldn t play aces then what s left? 2 7 os? just a thought ..
I have folded AA close to the money and went on to finish on the final table. The only reason I folded pre flop was because 5 players went all in and 4 of them had stacks that were bigger than mine and the last player was only just short of my stack and would have left me crippled.
AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall and that just didn't make any sense to put my entire tournament at risk against 5 players, all of whom could have had pocket pairs and the chances of one of them hitting a set would have been far greater than the chances of my aces holding up.
So I folded and a good job i did because two players hit sets on the flop and I've have gone out.
Usually I'd never fold AA but given I wasnt exactly flush with money and this was a good chance to build a bankroll if I made a good finish the long term prospects looked better if I folded and as it turned out I was right.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by fcumred: AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall
No,lol. If you give put AA vs. 5 reasonable hands of their ranges (I used KK,AKs,AQs,QQ and TT) you're still 46% equity. You also seem to forget about the great pot odds to get. vs. all players having AKs and KK-TT you still have 39% equity. Again,you forget about the pot odds that are enormous here.
------------
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by fcumred: AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall
No,lol. If you give put AA vs. 5 reasonable hands of their ranges (I used KK,AKs,AQs,QQ and TT) you've still got 46% equity. You also seem to forget about the great pot odds to get. vs. all players having AKs and KK-TT you still have 39% equity. Again,you forget about the pot odds that are enormous here.
Edited by BeMyATMplz (04 November 2011 @ 16:43 GMT)
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by fcumred: AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall
No,lol. If you give put AA vs. 5 reasonable hands of their ranges (I used KK,AKs,AQs,QQ and TT) you're still 46% equity. You also seem to forget about the great pot odds to get. vs. all players having AKs and KK-TT you still have 39% equity. Again,you forget about the pot odds that are enormous here.
------------
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by fcumred: AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall
No,lol. If you give put AA vs. 5 reasonable hands of their ranges (I used KK,AKs,AQs,QQ and TT) you've still got 46% equity. You also seem to forget about the great pot odds to get. vs. all players having AKs and KK-TT you still have 39% equity. Again,you forget about the pot odds that are enormous here.
honestly vs 5 players i think id rather have QJs than AA. math is great ! but at a certain amount of players involved in a hand preflop its all about luck.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by T3ddyKGB: honestly vs 5 players i think id rather have QJs than AA. math is great ! but at a certain amount of players involved in a hand preflop its all about luck.
It's all about equity and nothing else. QJs plays super,super bad vs. reaonable all in ranges of 4 people,there will almost always be people with AQs,QQ,JJ,those hands block your outs. Saying QJs is better in this spot is like saying 10% equity is better than 40% equity
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by T3ddyKGB: honestly vs 5 players i think id rather have QJs than AA. math is great ! but at a certain amount of players involved in a hand preflop its all about luck.
It's all about equity and nothing else. QJs plays super,super bad vs. reaonable all in ranges of 4 people,there will almost always be people with AQs,QQ,JJ,those hands block your outs. Saying QJs is better in this spot is like saying 10% equity is better than 40% equity
then let be at 89s - least its sooted
what you got with your AA if your vs 5 players? all you have is 2 outs. if one holds AK then less.. and im sure out of 10 times you will only win 2 games or so... the chance that i will hit a straight, two pair, a flush is way higher then you with your AA. i already said, math great (!)......but uh this is just a 50/50....gambling. no more poker... in this case i give a **** on math, sorry.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Why do you need outs? It's not as unlikely that AA with no improvement will be good at the end than you think lol. As I mentioned before,AA vs. 5 hands of a reasonable range has 39-40% equity,so you win 4 out of 10 times,not 2 out of 10. Why would you want to avoid a "50/50" (thats what you mentioned)? simple pot odds calculating makes it impossble to fold here. Thats like you reject to flip a coin for 10€ "buy in" with the possibility to win 50€.
And not saying maths is a fundamental part of poker is totally wrong as well. If you always want to get it in with more than 50% while you get get odds to call with worse it will do nothing but lose you money longterm.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Germany
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 2025
well i just think, if im vs 5 players, "one pair of aces" wont stand all the time. id mainly play cashgames and not tournys, so i definatly would avoid to go allin every time i hold AA if theres 5 players who already did it. then i can go play bingo instead. i highly doubt you will win, with your AA, 40% of the time vs 5 players.
sure, (lets the say $10 stacks) if you win 4 times you doubled your buyins = $200 i think, you wont win 40% of the time, if your unlucky you wont win any of them, exspecially if you dont have the bankroll - who knows, maybe u will lose 20 out of 20. its gambling... in my opinoin, which i think youll only win 2 times, you just got your $100 back.. sry bit confusing maybe but im multitabling
Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 30
Posted by fcumred: I have folded AA close to the money and went on to finish on the final table. The only reason I folded pre flop was because 5 players went all in and 4 of them had stacks that were bigger than mine and the last player was only just short of my stack and would have left me crippled.
AA would have been a huge favourite against each hand individually but against 5 players I am only about 20% favourite to win overall and that just didn't make any sense to put my entire tournament at risk against 5 players, all of whom could have had pocket pairs and the chances of one of them hitting a set would have been far greater than the chances of my aces holding up.
So I folded and a good job i did because two players hit sets on the flop and I've have gone out.
Usually I'd never fold AA but given I wasnt exactly flush with money and this was a good chance to build a bankroll if I made a good finish the long term prospects looked better if I folded and as it turned out I was right.
yes some one who gets what am onabout lol.....1 time i remember was on vc or william hills i folded aa to get in to the money, not sure if it was one i ended up wining but i got a decnt cash out of it
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by T3ddyKGB:
i highly doubt you will win, with your AA, 40% of the time vs 5 players.
vs. the ranges of hands I used (the ones I mentioned in my 1st post in this thread I believe,maybe 2nd) it's a fact you win inbetween 39-40% of the time (a simple,free programm like pokerstove can do that math for you)
I would never fold aces just to make the money... whatever it is a sitngo or a tournament BUT folding aces if I'm in a satellite game where I'm pretty sure to win my seat if I don't play the next 3 hands...
Posted by BeMyATMplz: Why do you need outs? It's not as unlikely that AA with no improvement will be good at the end than you think lol. As I mentioned before,AA vs. 5 hands of a reasonable range has 39-40% equity,so you win 4 out of 10 times,not 2 out of 10. Why would you want to avoid a "50/50" (thats what you mentioned)? simple pot odds calculating makes it impossble to fold here. Thats like you reject to flip a coin for 10� "buy in" with the possibility to win 50�.
And not saying maths is a fundamental part of poker is totally wrong as well. If you always want to get it in with more than 50% while you get get odds to call with worse it will do nothing but lose you money longterm.
I don;t want to piss on your fire, but AA v KK is only 80% so against ONE pair you are expected to lose 20% of the time.
Against 5 players you are going to lose substantially more times than you would win. Thats not debatable, thats a fact. Against 3 players you will only win 35% of the time, so the equity argument is utter crap.
