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Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
One question I had about the worry of being dominated. I get that that's obviously the worst possible scenario for you and is practically a death sentence but isn't the point of the big raise you betting that you have the best hand? Is it irrational to fear domination?
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
No,with the stack we had in this hand it's completely standard to play push or fold preflop. Basicly when antes are in play,having 15BB or less,the deadmoney is worth enough to make it worth it to just go for the deadmoney in general. However,the rule to either push or fold here also has one simple reason - if we raise here and miss the flop,we have a retarded postflop situation. Thus we'd prefer not to have to play postflop with this stack.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by vukas: agreed with Jibberish, I would probably limped
Limping is by far the worst option here. Limping will most likely cause that you'll have to play a multiway pot postflop,which is certainly not great with ATo. Also,if you limp and someone does a 3BB preflop raise,you pretty much have to call based on odds. If you limp and someone raises big enough for you to fold,you've just blown a few valuable % of your already small stack.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by vukas: agreed with Jibberish, I would probably limped
Limping is by far the worst option here. Limping will most likely cause that you'll have to play a multiway pot postflop,which is certainly not great with ATo. Also,if you limp and someone does a 3BB preflop raise,you pretty much have to call based on odds. If you limp and someone raises big enough for you to fold,you've just blown a few valuable % of your already small stack.
So no,please dont limp this
Agree. Limping is by far the worst. You have to fold or shove. These are the only options. I personally fold but I don't think shoving is a terrible idea.
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Posted by Arithmajik: Is it irrational to fear domination?
I don't think so. Whenever you raise or bet you have to consider what you are going to be called by. Establishing your opponents range is crucial. And sometimes even when we think we have the best hand the best option is to check or call.
So for example if you get a board of KQQ89 and you have AJ there would be no point raising the river. Even if it's likely Ace kicker wins you will only be called by another ace or two pair.
In this situation it's all-in preflop but consider the hands that would call you. This is where many disagree with me but I say you won't get called by A8 or below. I'd also rule out being called by 10 J, 10 9, 10 8. The more of these hands that drop out the worse your implied odds get. whereas you may expect to be dominated just 1 in 20 times with a wide calling range, with a tight calling range you'll be dominated by 1 in 4 calling hands.
This may not apply to the hand posted by the op but it is something to consider when playing other hands. Especially when someone shoves before you. It is usually better to call with 9 10 than A 9 simply cos 9 and 10 are cards that are not likely to be in your opponents hand. They are live cards whereas the ace will usually be dominated.
Its an instashove for me.. You have less than 6M ( bb+sb+antes ) and theres little or no chance you are going to pick up a better hand in that time.
Even taking the blinds is enough to at least give you a little more time to find a good spot to steal. At worst you run into hands like AA or 10 10 where you are all but drawing dead. A 10 v JJ, QQ or KK isn't too bad a spot to be in under the circumstances you still have outs to take the hand.
You were to all intents and purposes shortstacked and waiting would be stupid as you want marginal hands to be priced out of calling and each hand reduces the chances of them folding. Bigstacks will almost certainly call you with any two cards once you get this low.
Limping is not an option. You are then open to giving someone a free flop and having to fold if you miss the board and you simply cannot afford to lose chips.
Raising again is out of the question. A 3 x BB raise will commit you to the pot no matter what the flop is and any big stack will be priced in to call your raise with anything.
You did precisely the right thing. Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up busting. Thats poker.
Posted by awood88: . It's a hard spot and most people would see a decent hand and push here but experienced players know better.
So expirienced players like to get blinded down in MTTs instead of getting deep? Alright..
Not at all. I'm not encouraging playing so tight you get blinded out. When you have 10 - 14 bb you need to find a way to double up soon but simply winning a round of blinds doesn't solve anything. That's what will get you blinded out cos you are not earning anything per round. What you need is to get it all-in with another player when you are good. You won't do this with A10. No one is going to call 14 bb with worse. Only a middle pair in which case you get a race and that's not too bad or something that dominates your hand. In late position you shove A10 to win back blinds for the extra equity but you don't want to be called. UTG there's too many potential callers even short handed. Being able to play short-stack is one of the most important things in tourney play as we all have to do it at one point. And the key to good shortstack play is position.
Lets look at the maths..
you have 11k left which with equates to
BB - 1k sb - 5k antes - 100
thats 2100 per round at the very most. with a stack of 11k you have 5 rounds at the absolute maxumum, or put another way 30 hands.
Deal yourself 30 hands and see how many times you are going to get better than A 10.
So, working on that basis, shoving is obviously the sensible move here. OK, you may only take the blinds but it gives you 6 more hands to play with PLUS your stack is now larger and its less likely that you will be called with marginal hands. By now most of the complete donks will be long busted and those that know what they are doing will fold crap like 5 6 suited to a 5 x BB shove.
Limping or folding makes absolutely no sense whatsoever given how short of chips he had. All that will achieve is perhaps one more step up the money ladder before basically you have to go all in with any two cards and then you are almost dead in the water.
Picking up 20% more chips is far better than reducing your stack by 100 and then having 1000 less on the next hand where you could have 7 2 offsuit and you have to fold to any raise from the button. Then 500 less chips on the SB when you are in the worst position possible to attack or defend your hand.
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
I voted fold and then i was gonna post but got sucked into the thread and at one point i felt like a moron for voting fold. But then i read he had QQ and was like. This is why i fold that 10/10. You are better off moving before the button on a hand with no aggression against just 3 hands with any mid range or better hand. I know im way outta my league here but to me poker is about survival and going balls deep with a hand that gets crushed by any one willing to call with everyone left to act is dangerous.
It also allows anyone with the luck to find a hand easy chips. I would not be surprised to find it's well known my theory is wrong though.
------------ Reading some more i think it would have just been easier to say
+1 Awood88. Well written.
Edited by MicroMachina (23 December 2011 @ 01:20 GMT)
