Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
Any in depth answers would be greatly appreciated. Also for some of the more lucrative players what would a good solid roll for micro stakes consist of? im considering making a withdrawal but only to ensure i dont lose it all for naught. The money isnt an issue and im torn between keeping enough ammo in my account to allow me to play micros the way i prefer to and taking some out to keep me hungry for more.
I know for example i wouldnt have been felted in my last 5 games had i been worried about my bankroll.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
All depends on field size and structure (more turbos/nonturbos/deepstack tourneys),idk what the tourneys are like on merge nowdays (I guess u wanna keep playing there?)
I can't really give advise on MTT's since I usually play cash games. But I just want to give you a little hint because you talk about withdrawing some of your bankroll ...
A poker player is like a banker, you earn money you invest it in a game and try to make even more money ... and as mister douglas said it so beautifully in wall street "Greed is good" ... the bigger the bankrol,l the higher the limits you can play, the better your skills will become and the better you'll be able to make even more money
your hunger for more has to be a second nature if you play poker, you want that money and you're gonna get it any way you can, that's the mindset you got to have, it's a brutal game, and somebody has to win, it might as well be you
Good luck !! But when I read your blog I don't think luck has much to do with it .
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
Posted by BeMyATMplz: All depends on field size and structure (more turbos/nonturbos/deepstack tourneys),idk what the tourneys are like on merge nowdays (I guess u wanna keep playing there?)
heh, i posted this query with you in mind and im glad you didnt let me down.
I also figured field size and structure came into play but wasnt sure how. Alright yes i like merge tonnes as its been berry berry good for me. The fields are usually around the 500 player mark. Max for me would be the $2750 dazzler. It usually has 700 or so and the least would be just over 100 for the low guaranteed deepstack games.
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Posted by weakminded: I can't really give advise on MTT's since I usually play cash games. But I just want to give you a little hint because you talk about withdrawing some of your bankroll ...
A poker player is like a banker, you earn money you invest it in a game and try to make even more money ... and as mister douglas said it so beautifully in wall street "Greed is good" ... the bigger the bankrol,l the higher the limits you can play, the better your skills will become and the better you'll be able to make even more money
your hunger for more has to be a second nature if you play poker, you want that money and you're gonna get it any way you can, that's the mindset you got to have, it's a brutal game, and somebody has to win, it might as well be you
Good luck !! But when I read your blog I don't think luck has much to do with it .
Hey thanks for taking the time to look at the blog and thanks for adding some advice here. I understand what you mean and i agree with keeping a healthy amount but currently my bankroll could support higher levels but im not ready to take that step. I dont know if i ever want to. I love playing poker and i find im very comfortable currently at my stakes. Fortune permitting higher levels is something i may look at later in the year.
This i guess is why id like an honest assesment of what a longterm mtt roi% should look like.
Edited by MicroMachina (30 December 2011 @ 22:06 GMT)
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Hmm with 500 players I guess if you're very good around 100% could be achievable,but yeah idk how you play,if you crush the games you can make 80%+ longterm,anything around the 50% mark would also be very good tho. That counts for micros only of course,however the larger the field size the more ROI is achievable Once you get to midstakes ($20+) with relativly small field sizes (I guess around 150-200 players?) ~15-20% would be a good estimation for a good player.
Also considering the lower field size,you could also go lower with your bankrollmanagement than what I'd suggest on big sites like pokerstars. On stars I'd really not suggest to grind MTTs with less than 300 average buy ins in BR,however considering you will get a deep run more often on merge you could go with 100-150 (average) buy ins. Of course you could even go with less if you are willing to redeposit if necessary,but 100 average buy ins would be the minimum you should have to keep a healthy BR longterm.
About your plan on cashing out regulary - you mentioned the money isnt an issue for you. In that case I'd say if you think you can beat/keep up with low- or even midstake players,dont cash out until you get there. Build your roll and move up to where you can make proper money. Cashing out regulary will do nothing but slowing down your process of moving through the stakes,so unless you need money from poker sometimes,just build your roll for now and cash out when you arrived at stakes where it's worth it
EDIT: I just remembered - dont they also have multitable (45 and 180 players)SNGs on merge? If they do,mix them into your MTT sessions (I heard they open very slowly anyways). MTSNGs are decent bankroll builders and good variance busters
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Over around 1100 MTTs on PKR my ROI is always around 80%..
I've seen a lot better to (around 100-150) over similar samples.
PKR has relatively low field sizes, I would imagine on Stars your ROI would be significantly lower over a similar sample, although over a much larger sample you may be able to get a similar figure.
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
Posted by BeMyATMplz: Hmm with 500 players I guess if you're very good around 100% could be achievable,but yeah idk how you play,if you crush the games you can make 80%+ longterm,anything around the 50% mark would also be very good tho. That counts for micros only of course,however the larger the field size the more ROI is achievable Once you get to midstakes ($20+) with relativly small field sizes (I guess around 150-200 players?) ~15-20% would be a good estimation for a good player.
Also considering the lower field size,you could also go lower with your bankrollmanagement than what I'd suggest on big sites like pokerstars. On stars I'd really not suggest to grind MTTs with less than 300 average buy ins in BR,however considering you will get a deep run more often on merge you could go with 100-150 (average) buy ins. Of course you could even go with less if you are willing to redeposit if necessary,but 100 average buy ins would be the minimum you should have to keep a healthy BR longterm.
About your plan on cashing out regulary - you mentioned the money isnt an issue for you. In that case I'd say if you think you can beat/keep up with low- or even midstake players,dont cash out until you get there. Build your roll and move up to where you can make proper money. Cashing out regulary will do nothing but slowing down your process of moving through the stakes,so unless you need money from poker sometimes,just build your roll for now and cash out when you arrived at stakes where it's worth it
EDIT: I just remembered - dont they also have multitable (45 and 180 players)SNGs on merge? If they do,mix them into your MTT sessions (I heard they open very slowly anyways). MTSNGs are decent bankroll builders and good variance busters
Awesome advice all of it and thank you very much for it. I agree with the cashing out plan as well. You are also correct about the larger sng's being awfully slow. i registered in a 2.20 180 and two days later i saw it in my games.... for the price and return id love if they filled like stars does.
Ill be looking this over again but i do appreciate the helpful advice
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Australia
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 325
Keep doing what you're doing, you know when and when not too, that should make alot of sense to you as you seem pretty clued up as to what you really want. I am sure that later on when your bankroll is better you can withdraw the amount you need and then have a big enough roll to counter the variance. Cheers Mate Happy New Year and Best of luck to you.
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
Posted by arthur72: Keep doing what you're doing, you know when and when not too, that should make alot of sense to you as you seem pretty clued up as to what you really want. I am sure that later on when your bankroll is better you can withdraw the amount you need and then have a big enough roll to counter the variance. Cheers Mate Happy New Year and Best of luck to you.
tyvm man! my father always told me there are three types of people in the world. Those who know, those who learn and those who dont care. Your post reminds me of the sentiment.
happy new years to you as well but i got one sleep left before i let my hair down
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
imo mtt's are way the hardest thing to predict a stable roi...everyone knows that even the pro's have really long periods when they are just shipping the cash to other pockets...i have a simple view on roi in poker- it doesn't matter what type of game you play, what format, what level etc. you can expect no more than 10% long term roi, more realistically 5%. it's just the question what is long time...in mtt's a year is minimum imo, on fixed limit game a month usually gives you a decent picture...
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by pochui: you can expect no more than 10% long term roi, more realistically 5%.
Hell no...lol Like I said,the more players in the tourney the higher ROI is achievable longterm. In 180s SNGs on Stars most regs have about 25% ROI,at micros some even have 40% over good samplesize (I have ~70% over 1.2K games or so,but yeah,when I say sample I'm talking about ~5K games or more and if I grinded 180s-only my ROI would also drop drastically to about 20% I'd say) Just imagine such ROIs compared to the MTT field sizes...it would explode
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Canada
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 658
I have noticed regulars in my mtt's that also command a rather high roi in micro mtt's.
I know my buddy plays on stars and he grinded his teeth on mtt's there and when he hit after a year or so of minor cashes. his roi zoomed thru the roof. it being stars and the uber large fields i can see why.
it also took him a long time for him to bring it back down to earthly levels.
I love the discussion and appreciate all the things mentioned.
... the bigger the bankrol,l the higher the limits you can play, the better your skills will become and the better you'll be able to make even more money 
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