Joined: Mar '08
Location: Australia
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1158
hi all,im letting BRMers know first.i have applied to the Australian government for a grant to independantly check 3 of the biggest poker sites software after the RNG has done its job.what this means is the RNG[random number generator]is only checked and verified after the hand has been delt,not after the flop comes out.in other word the cards delt are random,but the sites arnt checked for what the software does after the dealing to players.is there manipulation after the deal.this is the unknown entity to online poker playing.the australian government has sent me airfare to meet with the reserve bank about the grant,which means the are interested,and provide them with more details.they have said also that the federal police would like to send a computer specialist with me if grant is given to verify all results.this may have far reaching consiquences to all online poker.the hard part is going tobe to get the poker sites to agree to the though intrusion of there software,while also asking for million of millions of played hands to check all data outside of what the RNG does.its going tobe a massive task so wish me luck.if they have nothing to hide access will be granted.then finally online poker if the results realy are true and random,with no manipulation,can say they are not rigged.will post with updates as i find out more details.
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1331
Hi scl1975.
I want to remember that the random 'dealt' (or create if we belive in rigged houses) all the hand (player cards, flop, turn and river) before the hands has been dealt to the player.
Manipulate flop turn and river after done a random dealt is a very hard work (almost impossible, i think).
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
You will meet the reserve bank just for messaging them about a possible situation that probably isn’t verified by the government? Australian government gives all that attention to everyone? In Portugal, we are only 10 million, and we sometimes join big groups of signatures to try out some changes in the system, and everything always go down the flush. But good luck to you, you deserve it, prepare yourself extremely well, try not to talk about what you don’t know, focus on what is the matter of the question.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: Australia
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1158
hi fakiry,yes Australian government is very interested,well mainly because australians lost 19billion last year on online gambling and online poker is a big part of it.also i have a genius friend who is a mathamatician,who broke down the RNGs data code,which answers chartoules question,after dealing which is randon,the software can be altered to give what cards they want to give,that are left in the deck.on flop,turn,river.this has never been check by any independant auditer or organisation.this is what i will try to verify.it may be impossible,but i will try.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
dont think any site is gonna give you access to their servers and they are not bound to either. though they'll be willing to provide you hand histories which you can analyse but wont give 100% results
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
dude i really hope to hear something (anything ) from you at all- i hope for your own good you do not have a family and believe that short life is a great life seriously be careful you should have the brain to understand that what you are attempting to do is not going to be met very well by the rigged sites owners- and they have plenty of cash to shut you down/ or shoot you down i guess good luck dude
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Good try sd1975, that's threat to poker site for maintain their random system. If site owner really fair nothing problem. If they are not fair they will afraid do something bad to you. Why ? If they do, anyone will know they are not fair with RNG hope so, don't worry. You did right
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Ireland
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 476
i wish you all the best in your venture but as most people said here i dont think the poker sites will let you test there database,because if you do find something shifty then they will lose everything so gaining access to the sites will be your biggest obstacle and big to the australian government for showing interest in this,i wish more governments could be like this
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by scl1975: if they have nothing to hide access will be granted.
This may be a fairly significant issue. As they most certainly do have something to hide - Poker Site source code it NOT open source for a very good reason; security. The other issue as well is obviously it IS intellectual property, however - I would imagine you could simply sign a confidentiality agreement to ensure you don't distribute any trade secrets / source code.
Beyond that - good luck with your quest.
Out of curiosity as well - you mention that you (I assume you mean yourself) wish to do this testing of the RNG. What is your background/qualification in this regard?
And what types of tests do you intend on conducting?
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Posted by scl1975: this has never been check by any independant auditer or organisation.this is what i will try to verify.it may be impossible,but i will try.
I am also very curious as to your source for this information. Especially as you appear to be using it as a blanket statement (as in; you would appear to be applying this statement to ALL poker sites).
I would certainly be under the impression that when their RNG code is certified they would test for this. Because I know a lot of sites don't randomly deal cards on the flop, turn, river. Rather - they have a virtual 'deck' which is shuffled and then the cards are dealt in sequential order from the shuffled deck. I know PKR for example, does it this way.
In this instance (using a virtual deck that get's shuffled) there is no differentiation between the initial shuffle / dealt cards and the cards that appear on the flop, turn, river - since they are all fed same random process that shuffles the deck before each hand.
Anyway - any further elaboration you're able to provide, would be appreciated - as this sounds like an interesting project.
Edited by jessthehuman (14 February 2012 @ 16:13 GMT)
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
How hard can it be for a computer program to manipulate the flop turn and river. Im not a computer programmer but i dont think it will be hard to make one, choosing total random dealt hands, and then picking random flop, turn and river from a predetermined list according to the dealt hands.
But if you dont check the outcome of the hands after river pretty much i think its pointless.
Joined: Feb '12
Location: Germany
Age: 45 (F)
Posts: 23
Posted by jbrooksie: All this assumes that there is some benefit for the sites in the manipulation of the flop, turn and river and I can't see what that would be.
Well, the obvious benefit would be to make more money. Lets assume that there is a poker site that manipulates the card draw. Why should such a site not use bots to act as players to win the money of real players? If the poker site would do this in a subtle way the chance of getting caught would be very small.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by tn111978: Why should such a site not use bots to act as players to win the money of real players?
This isn't a discussion about bots. And for what it is worth, I'm pretty sure some of the smaller / dodgier rooms (Pitbull anyone) have been suspected of doing this.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
This is very interesting task to attempt to accomplish. If access is denied by any of the on-line poker sites does this mean they're guilty or will be investigated further by a higher power? Also, to think that the Australian governement is backing this is very hard to believe since this will mean traveling to all the countries that have on-line sites, then whom actually analyzes their software. It would take several technical people to profile the data, then the data would need to crunched using various statiscal evaluations which would also require detailed comparisons of the millions of hands that are dealt. Seems like this is going to take some organizing and adequate staffing to accomplish.
Will definitely be looking for posts pertaining to your findings.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: Australia
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1158
hi all latest update.flying to canberra on monday for talks with government about this project.it does raise some serious issues,many serious issues.all of which is going to take alot of time and expense.the grant they are going to give is minimum $80,000.which im hoping to get as long as my proposal works out.i have the maths to back it up,the computer tecks to explain the software,now i just need tobe able to explain it properly.the one thing that can stop all this is the sites.which is fair enough.i have had discussions with two sites already about this.they were not to happy to say the least.they said they will be discussing the matter and get back to me.see how long this takes.they both said that there RNG are tested,one even by australian company in melborne.i said yes they are,and they passed,but what about testing after the cards are delt,ie,flop,turn river.this is where the fun starts.we do not give out that information.mmmmm.can you explain why.NO.our RNGs are tested.again i asked same question.there reply,this must be discussed and we will get back to you.i told this to the gambling commissioner this afternoon,and he was most intrigued by this,as was i.when i started this project i didnt think it would would go this far,but now its starting to snowball.i think government were naive to how testing is being done.but they paying attention to what i have to say cause it makes sense.now im not saying online poker is rigged.not at all.i just want better testing of all phases of online poker,to insure legitamacy.this story is just begining so keep youse all posted.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Could be interesting, but if they have something to hide they will continue to do so, if not then its a, almost, waste of time, GL with it. I was chatting to a player the other day about on-line poker, he went down the its all set up route, yer a fun convo, but he did make an interesting comment about "random" , he suggested the hole cards and flop are dealt at random, then the turn and river could be randomly selected from a suit or a range of respective value cards to favour a player, so even though it is random, its selective.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Please use paragraphs in your future posts, I am interested to follow what you have to say, but walls of text are not easy to read.
If you get the chance, I would like you to go into more detail about the project.
And I must also say, as an Australian - I am a little concerned that you are perhaps fueling a fire within our government that may back argument against online poker. I would hate to see a BRM member contribute towards state/federal laws that are anti-online poker.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
Posted by B1gfoot: but he did make an interesting comment about "random" , he suggested the hole cards and flop are dealt at random, then the turn and river could be randomly selected from a suit or a range of respective value cards to favour a player, so even though it is random, its selective.
its not random, the outcome is clearly biased here once you start "selecting" population from which sample is selected, it doesnt remain random anymore
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 5
which poker sites are you actually talking about? seems like you have a thing for auditing I've been waiting for a reply about my KPMG placement for ages now haha. good luck man; sounds interesting
) from you at all- i hope for your own good you do not have a family and believe that short life is a great life 
seriously be careful you should have the brain to understand that what you are attempting to do is not going to be met very well by the rigged sites owners- and they have plenty of cash to shut you down/ or shoot you down i guess 
I've been waiting for a reply about my KPMG placement for ages now haha.
