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Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 148
I don't have the hand history because i'm not using HEM at the moment and i've played a couple of tourneys after these hands... I had a couple of spots that i'm not too sure about and i've talked about with a couple of my friends but they opinions are different. 1. Late game, 3$ buyin game at pokerstars, something like 25 people left out of 2.5 - 3K runners, me with 17BB in UTG+1 with 77. Now..the UTG limps..I didn't had much info on the guy..he seemed like a loosing player and a fish by his results online (also inexperienced) and although hasn;t been at the table for long, he limped a lot and was quite passive pre and postflop. For the info, the hand played like this: MP opened 3x with AQo , UTG called flop Q72 rainbow, UTG check - calls turn x, river x (irelevant as it didn;t change the board so much), the UTG check called all the streets. he had JJ (also a little irrelevant). Now, what would you do have done in that spot: allin or fold? Obv you don't raise fold when you get overs and don't flop a set, and also there will more often than not be bad flops where you can't c-bet. I think that allin 15% of the time and fold 85% is quite good...and i've seen pros/semipros that go allin most of time and vice versa (fold most of the time). If I were results oriented, I would say that the allin there would have been best because I would have tripled up, but given the spot, I don't think a worse hand would've called me there: so I would get a flip at best or face an overpair. Also, on another note, I prefer to 3bet shove a stack between 15 and 20BB than to open shove with mid-low pairs. Especially from the blinds when going for the squeeze. Any thoughts on that ?
2. A couple of hands later, i'm in MP with 66. the UTG is allin for 1.5BB because he got stacked a hand earlier, UTG+2 raises 3.5x (he just arrived at the table and he''s a big stack fish). Now I have 12BB and although now I kinda regret the decision, but I but the raiser on AT+ and shoved on him. He instacalled, turned AQo , flopped the ace and ended my run. I preffer folding there, still don't know why I took that flip, because I prefer to shove from LP and have some kind of fold equity over the blinds (especially if they're tight) and increase my stack slowly from there. I have to mention that I was 19 out of 22 when I busted.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Easy fold on both counts, as a general rule of thumb you don't play mid-low pocket pairs out of early/middle position, and you certainly don't do so when the blinds are so extortionate.
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 148
I don't play small pockets OOP, and now I'm 90% sure that the correct play with the 66 was to fold, but... BUT...the sevens still remain a shove/fold spot for me. I don't have exact numbers, but more often than not people are gonna fold so I still have some decent fold equity there, sometimes I'll take the flip and sometimes i'll face an overpair (still a lot less than the flip or fold spots). I'd rather openshove 77 from LP...thus my predicament from the EP. And another thing..lately I've been trying to open up my game and play a little looser than before in some shove/fold spots - that's why I'm asking about this particular hand in the past was a sure fold.
EDIT: I don't use HEM at the moment, and when it's the case, I fold TT-QQ preflop in a beat, but as I've had some deep runs at some mtts and seen some good profitable players make those shoves at micro and low-mid buyins. Plus, from 15BB, unless you have some kind of monster, i think it is better to openshove, than to go 2 - 2.5x raise and then what ? You're left with 13-15BB and then you're in a REAL tricky spot as to cbet or not and how much because you can commit yourself quite easily.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
I agree with your logic but its still a fold, 77 doesn't flop well at all, and this is your whole tournament life at risk here, you'd be in a better spot folding, and shoving on something like 910s when you're in late position because it flops better.
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 148
Thank you both for your thoughts..the thing is..when the ICM dictates, I've folded way way better preflop in end game/final tables, because of the payout and stack sizes...but now I wasn't really sure about this.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by tomboogy: Plus, from 15BB, unless you have some kind of monster, i think it is better to openshove, than to go 2 - 2.5x raise and then what ? You're left with 13-15BB and then you're in a REAL tricky spot as to cbet or not and how much because you can commit yourself quite easily.
While I'm not much of an MTT player, I can say that this is pretty much correct. Open raising when your M is in the yellow ie: under 20, puts you in very tricky spots. Basically any raise you make is committing you to the hand, so you've gotta be a bit selective on your range, depending on your opponents perceived ranges and their stack sizes. Conversely, open shoving hands like mid PP can be bad as well, as you'll be basically a flip against anything your opponent is calling with.
I think position is a key factor here, and shoving a vulnerable hand like 66 or 77 from early position is probably a bad play. Since you've got like 15bb left, you've till got some time to fold your more marginal hands when your in bad position, and wait for a better spot. Marginal hands become a lot stronger when you're playing from around late position or the hijack.
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 148
I think position is a key factor here, and shoving a vulnerable hand like 66 or 77 from early position is probably a bad play. Since you've got like 15bb left, you've till got some time to fold your more marginal hands when your in bad position, and wait for a better spot. Marginal hands become a lot stronger when you're playing from around late position or the hijack.
I totally agree...I never play marginal hands out of position, and the fact that your hand has more value from late is basic knowledge...i realize now the what a donk I was lol. Also, I have remembered exactly the 66 hand: I wasn;t 19 out of 22...I was 15 out of 16 with 9-10BB, I was sure I would get called by the original raiser and was sure I had the flip. My logic was that I wanted the flip so I would have the change for a double up and the first 3 places..I didn't want to just crawl to the final table and get busted 9 or 8 or worste, to bubble it...I play to ship it (now you can understand why I wanted the flip in that spot).
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
1st hand is an easy ship,especially if the limper has limped sometimes in the past. Him limping makes pushing even easier of a decision then because you can gain another extra BB by just taking the deadmoney alot of the time.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
First off I agree with sadamman and would fold in both cases.
I'm not the most experienced player so my opinion and techniques aren't the best, but has worked for me. I only play small and mid pairs when I can get in to see the flop cheap. This meaning about the cost of the BB unless the blinds are low in starting hands of the game. There are times you can bluff a bit, but I have to be familiar with the opponents and have a stack. Just don't trap yourself and start chasing if you are in and miss 3 of a kind after the flop. That is if someone is betting / raising. Good Luck to All!
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
You had low pair. In your position, either UTG+1 or MP, I think I would have called, but if flop didn’t bring me a 7, I would put myself on check/fold. And I don’t consider this a difficult decision, I never worry too much with pairs below 10.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
No one mention or compare with theory? I remember Doyle Brunson said at his book ( super system?) he usually limp in with middle or small pair and fold if some one big bet after flop and didn't hit on flop. Compare with your experience.
Joined: May '10
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 148
Limping end game with 20BB or less with mid low pairs is a -EV play.. Serpang, you say to limp and fold to a big bet after the flop if u don't get the set..but what about preflop, when you get a raise ? Do you just limp fold ? Or do you hang on to call the raise and THEN fold the flop? @Fakiry: I don't recommend limping so much with a mid stack early/mid position. Do the math or review your hands if the statistics don't satisfy you... it's a leak what you do..
I think the second shove with 66 iis okay you know it will be a tricky spot and the fishy player won't be folding a10 either but you have to think that towards the end of the tourney with so few hands left your going to need to take a coinflip here and there when your stack is very short I think there is an argument for shoving 77 but I would probably fold it with 17bb left when in early that 66 was probably your last dealt pair before blinding out so I think you are in a situation where up against a fish you have little choice you wouldn't have folded qq in that spot but still would have busted. I treat final stages like bingo and shove quite wide when I am short and generallly this helps to gain blinds etc I tighten up agian when I can afford to do so. I find increasing variance is acceptable in the short term at the end of tourneys to decrease it overall. By being aggressive with hands you would not usually want to you can eiher go bust or get lucky and accumulate chips to sustain you through a bad beat with decent cards later on this is why with 77 I think its borderline even though in technical terms its suiicide but 66 iis fine the guy could have been stealing quite a lot wider than aq
