Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 5712
Yeh. i have that problem. The more I read and study the worse my game gets for a few days. I have abit of a theory that I am trying to utilise so much new info that I miss oit on some of the basics, so focus on freerolls for the next few days so I dont lose but can practice the theory quite strictly...though taking into account the style of play of many in freerolls.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by noonlion:
I've been reading some really good poker books lately and I'm having tons of trouble utilising it.
I've lost more money in the last two days than the last month combined.
Anyone else have this problem?
Yeah - I think with a book, if you simply read it through you can only expect a very subtle change in your game. This is basically all I've done and from experience, I've found some books to be very good reads, by the differences to my game are very subtle and in personal experience - if I try and 'make moves' (kind of like reenacting hands from the book examples) it generally goes horribly wrong, I think it disrupts the flow of the game - you kind of create these spots in your mind to try something out from a book, but it doesn't come off as natural and it goes wrong.
However - and this IS NOT from personal experience, but I would imagine this would probably be more effective:
*Read the book slowly and work on incorporating each chapter into your game before reading the next. * Actually spend some time analyzing the charts and tables in the book, learn the maths and such. * Most importantly - I think you would actually need to go through your HH with a program like HEM and really look for you weak spots in your game and try and use the book as a lense for looking at your HH - kind of like some (cheap-ass) coaching.
Ultimately- it's pretty hard to learn anything (not just poker) from simply reading a book. Learning, for most people, comes from doing - hands on. I
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Basic strategy is simple, TAG early/middle/late position, early/middle/late stage, also ICM for SNG/MTT is kinda easy to learn, if we apply these ok we quickly become a winning player on micro. After that we have more strategy, range, read opponent, more posiiton ect, struggling with it for years now
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Very good advise from Jess, I got same advice before from real pro poker player. I got same experience like you, noonlion and damosk. Even I didn't win single $ a long six month after read 3 poker book consecutive in a row !!!. We can't direct adopt from book to our play, should adjust at situation we face it, always changes. I thought we just can take ' their idea' not 'form'. Discussing with friends or this forum is better. Remember , poker book writer play at high stake ! I am sure it's different with low or medium stake, especially early phase MTT.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Serpang: Remember , poker book writer play at high stake ! I am sure it's different with low or medium stake
Yeah - this sadly is a really big downfall regarding a LOT of what you read in a book. Unless you know your opponent is somebody who thinks about things; bet-sizes, pot-odds, what you're representing, etc - it's often best to just apply a simple "TAG" approach.
In saying that - a lot of fish/donkeys are easy enough to exploit - just be careful that you correctly identify their playing style - so you actually exploit them instead of leveling yourself!
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1331
Posted by noonlion:
I've been reading some really good poker books lately and I'm having tons of trouble utilising it.
I've lost more money in the last two days than the last month combined.
Anyone else have this problem?
Well is kind standard have worst results when we try to introduce in our games new 'skills'. We will make more mistakes using new kind of game but that become in better profit when we learn to use the new skills properly.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Serpang: Remember , poker book writer play at high stake ! I am sure it's different with low or medium stake
Yeah - this sadly is a really big downfall regarding a LOT of what you read in a book. Unless you know your opponent is somebody who thinks about things; bet-sizes, pot-odds, what you're representing, etc - it's often best to just apply a simple "TAG" approach.
In saying that - a lot of fish/donkeys are easy enough to exploit - just be careful that you correctly identify their playing style - so you actually exploit them instead of leveling yourself!
Thanks a lot
it's often best to just apply a simple "TAG" approach.
Doomdy already prove it at his last post with graphic. Me too, not too bad after back to play with conservatif style. Poker book just I use to improve step by step, yeah...very slow that I can
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
Read the books and get an idea but dont change your game from A to Z point. In no way, that will be good to you. You are used to a specific play and mostly i think you are gonna make more mistakes when you try to "merge" your play with one of the books you have read. at once. Some good advices above, and of course the point that every poker book reader must have in mind that play isnt the same in every limit.gl
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by noonlion:
I've been reading some really good poker books lately and I'm having tons of trouble utilising it.
I've lost more money in the last two days than the last month combined.
Anyone else have this problem?
Yeah - I think with a book, if you simply read it through you can only expect a very subtle change in your game. This is basically all I've done and from experience, I've found some books to be very good reads, by the differences to my game are very subtle and in personal experience - if I try and 'make moves' (kind of like reenacting hands from the book examples) it generally goes horribly wrong, I think it disrupts the flow of the game - you kind of create these spots in your mind to try something out from a book, but it doesn't come off as natural and it goes wrong.
However - and this IS NOT from personal experience, but I would imagine this would probably be more effective:
*Read the book slowly and work on incorporating each chapter into your game before reading the next. * Actually spend some time analyzing the charts and tables in the book, learn the maths and such. * Most importantly - I think you would actually need to go through your HH with a program like HEM and really look for you weak spots in your game and try and use the book as a lense for looking at your HH - kind of like some (cheap-ass) coaching.
Ultimately- it's pretty hard to learn anything (not just poker) from simply reading a book. Learning, for most people, comes from doing - hands on. I
Sound advice.
I was thinking that yesterday, don't try and blaze through the book and expect some grand change.
Apply each chapter - work on position first, then bet sizing etc etc
Essentially I found myself questioning my every move against something I'd read, added on to the situation at several tables where I was having to make a decision and things got ugly.
Pretty stupid in hindsight, but another relatively cheap lesson learnt.
It's like reading a book on how to sail and going out in a yacht.
------------
Posted by Mober: Read the books and get an idea but dont change your game from A to Z point. In no way, that will be good to you. You are used to a specific play and mostly i think you are gonna make more mistakes when you try to "merge" your play with one of the books you have read. at once. Some good advices above, and of course the point that every poker book reader must have in mind that play isnt the same in every limit.gl
Again really sound advice - it ends up you don't play your own poker at all, it's a hybrid of your own and someone elses (and of a high stakes player usually) which ends up in no mans land, winning sometimes but losing more often.
I also think single or two table max is good for learning and merging new information and knowledge.
If I can't make an automatic decision then I'm losing $ in the long run.
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Argentina
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 748
One big flaw I see in books is that they do not caution you on where *not* to apply their concepts. What I've found through experience (and then it just made sense), is that you should play *exactly* one level over your competition A player at level 0 only thinks about the cards they have A player at level 1 also thinks about the cards the opponent may have At level 2, they also think about what the opp thinks about the player's own cards. And so on.
So say you are playing against a level 0 opponent. Playing at level 2 (thinking about what he thinks you have), makes no sense, because your opp will NOT be thinking about that. Therefore, semi-bluffs, and hand rep become useless, and they may also cost you money
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by teteban: One big flaw I see in books is that they do not caution you on where *not* to apply their concepts. What I've found through experience (and then it just made sense), is that you should play *exactly* one level over your competition A player at level 0 only thinks about the cards they have A player at level 1 also thinks about the cards the opponent may have At level 2, they also think about what the opp thinks about the player's own cards. And so on.
So say you are playing against a level 0 opponent. Playing at level 2 (thinking about what he thinks you have), makes no sense, because your opp will NOT be thinking about that. Therefore, semi-bluffs, and hand rep become useless, and they may also cost you money
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
There is no secret formula and poker books don’t tell you what to do on every single cases, they don’t even tell you to move always the same way in the same situation. Better than knowing what books have inside (which is very important) is to understand what their contents mean.
Joined: Apr '12
Location: Argentina
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 78
Posted by teteban: One big flaw I see in books is that they do not caution you on where *not* to apply their concepts. What I've found through experience (and then it just made sense), is that you should play *exactly* one level over your competition A player at level 0 only thinks about the cards they have A player at level 1 also thinks about the cards the opponent may have At level 2, they also think about what the opp thinks about the player's own cards. And so on.
So say you are playing against a level 0 opponent. Playing at level 2 (thinking about what he thinks you have), makes no sense, because your opp will NOT be thinking about that. Therefore, semi-bluffs, and hand rep become useless, and they may also cost you money
Excelent comment, the best I read so far...
And as Fakiry says, the important thing from books is to understand the contents and the theory which can be applied to the practice. But as it happens with every book, all the theory it's not applicable for the real life (I've seen a lot of this in my career).
So, just learn the "concept" from the book and try to apply it with your real game.
