Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by YPRep: Hi Retribution,
I've been in contact with the customer service team and collusion regarding this case. I believe you have now been sent the hand history and you can now freely post the hands involved in the case.
I've also personally looked through this case, and the previous case that you raised regarding another two players which you deemed were obviously chip dumping. In both cases the analysis of the collusion department and myself both point to there being no chipdumping and no relation between the accounts involved.
Poker is a game where you often find your self in spots where it appears everyone is playing specifically against you, but very often these situations arise simply due to the way hands are dealt. You are analysing the way players have previously played, against each others and against you without actual knowledge of their actual holdings which would make your opinions very biased and incorrect.
I'm sorry that you lost to what you would deem a case of collusion, however we have analysed the results and feel that your analysis of the hands and situations are incorrect. It was a freeroll - and we would have no reasons to be defending any specific players in this freeroll if collusion was indeed found.
br8s8 posted ante (125) pantse75 posted ante (125) lebada posted ante (125) Ego83 posted ante (125) armany posted ante (125) Sevendeuce79 posted ante (125) Betting round ended. Main pot: 750 pantse75 posted SB (600). lebada posted BB (1200). Dealing cards: Sevendeuce79: 9d, 7c Ego83 folded. armany folded. Sevendeuce79 folded. br8s8 folded. pantse75 raised 1200 to 2400. lebada called 1200. Betting round ended. Main pot: 5550 Dealing flop: 5c, 7h, 3c pantse75 bet 1200. lebada raised 1200 to 2400. br8s8 said: loooool pantse75 folded. lebada gets back 1200. Betting round ended. Main pot: 7950 br8s8 said: omg lebada mucked. lebada won main pot. lebada won 7950. Hand ended.
Pantse, second in chips, min-raises pre, and lebada, who's committing 1/2 his staclk just calls instead of shoving? And then when the flop comes, pantse min-bets, and then FOLDS to a min-reraise?
Let's look at this objectively. Pantse SHOULD be calling any 2, he's only facing like another 1k into a pot of like 8k and this would have left lebada with only another like 800 behind.
Pantses min-raise pre and then min-bet fold makes NO sense here at all. If he had a monster, he should have just shoved pre. If he didn't, then he either should have folded pre, or check-folded the flop.
Hand 2:
After me having played pretty tight, this hand happens. Pantse had been the only real aggressor at the table up until now, frequently min-raising pre-flop.
br8s8 posted ante (150) pantse75 posted ante (150) lebada posted ante (150) Ego83 posted ante (150) armany posted ante (150) Sevendeuce79 posted ante (150) Betting round ended. Main pot: 900 armany posted SB (800). Sevendeuce79 posted BB (1600). Dealing cards: Sevendeuce79: Kd, 4d pantse75: 7d, 9c br8s8 folded. pantse75 raised 1600 to 3200. lebada folded. Ego83 folded. armany folded. Sevendeuce79 raised 11071 to 14271. pantse75 called 11071. Betting round ended. Main pot: 30242 Dealing flop: 9d, 7c, 6h Dealing turn: 3h Dealing river: Ah pantse75 showed: [Ah 9d 9c 7d 7c ] - Two pairs, Nines and Sevens. Sevendeuce79 showed: [Ah Kd 9d 7c 6h ] - High card Ace. pantse75 won main pot with Two pairs, Nines and Sevens. pantse75 won 30242. Hand ended.
Calls a shove with 97? Okay, I can accept that maybe the guys a fucking donk and had NO clue about my tight table image, but it just didn't coincide with his previous pattern, where he often shutdown pre if anyone showed aggression.
br8s8 posted ante (250) pantse75 posted ante (250) lebada posted ante (250) Ego83 posted ante (250) armany posted ante (250) Betting round ended. Main pot: 1250 pantse75 posted SB (1250). lebada posted BB (2500). Dealing cards: pantse75: Jh, 5h lebada: 7c, 5d Ego83 folded. armany folded. br8s8 called 2500. pantse75 said: advise for u,stop teasing soon. pantse75 called 1250. lebada checked. Betting round ended. Main pot: 8750 Dealing flop: 7s, 9c, As pantse75 checked. lebada checked. br8s8 checked. Betting round ended. Main pot: 8750 Dealing turn: 6c Sevendeuce79(observer) said: naw pantse75 bet 2500. lebada called 373. Sevendeuce79(observer) said: im watching until this ends now br8s8 folded. pantse75 gets back 2127. Betting round ended. Main pot: 9496 Dealing river: Kc pantse75 showed: [As Kc Jh 9c 7s ] - High card Ace. lebada showed: [As Kc 9c 7s 7c ] - Pair of Sevens. Sevendeuce79(observer) said: see lebada won main pot with Pair of Sevens. lebada won 9496. Hand ended.
I don't even know where to begin commenting on this hand. Lebada only has 373 chips behind, and pantse doesn't bet until the turn? Lebada has a pair and 1 card to come, with pantse only drawing to a jack. This would only make sense if they were sharing their hands with each other.
Admittedly br's presence in the hand complicates this a bit, but realistically if he had anything that connected with that board, he would have likely bet on the flop.
Hand 4:
Next hand on this table Prev hand on this table [2012-07-04 23:54:41]: starting hand #7124603 Table: €21 Freeroll Satellite 4 Seats GTD - NL Hold'em 1500/3000 Ante: 300 (Tournament hand #79220, table 17) Starting game. seat 1. br8s8 [8444 chips] seat 2. pantse75 [50294 chips] seat 4. lebada [9496 chips] seat 5. Ego83 [28074 chips] seat 6. armany [53192 chips]
br8s8 posted ante (250) pantse75 posted ante (250) lebada posted ante (250) Ego83 posted ante (250) armany posted ante (250) Betting round ended. Main pot: 1250 lebada posted SB (1250). Ego83 posted BB (2500). Dealing cards: Sevendeuce79(observer) said: WOW br8s8 said: tz armany folded. br8s8 folded. br8s8 said: ok pantse75 raised 2500 to 5000. lebada folded. br8s8 said: i will report too Ego83 folded. pantse75 gets back 2500. Betting round ended. Main pot: 7500 pantse75 mucked. pantse75 won main pot. pantse75 won 7500. br8s8 said: Hand ended. Sevendeuce79(observer) said: see what i mean Sevendeuce79(observer) said: that was total bs Sevendeuce79(observer) said: no way that hand was legit...no freaking way Sevendeuce79(observer) said: br Sevendeuce79(observer) said: [email protected] Sevendeuce79(observer) said: email them Sevendeuce79(observer) said: make sure u reference tourney #79220 Sevendeuce79(observer) said: do it even if u win pantse75 said: he wont br8s8 said: i will think about it pantse75 said: like u didnt Sevendeuce79(observer) said: i totally did report you pant Sevendeuce79(observer) said: i swear to god pantse75 said: have fun Sevendeuce79(observer) said: br, if u dont report, then they will keep ripping people off pantse75 said: u should stop soon really pantse75 said: omg pantse75 said: do something to yourself man... pantse75 said: its just poker Sevendeuce79(observer) said: dont care
This is the chat from the very next hand. Even BR agrees he thinks that there's something going on.
br8s8 posted ante (250) pantse75 posted ante (250) lebada posted ante (250) Ego83 posted ante (250) armany posted ante (250) Betting round ended. Main pot: 1250 lebada posted SB (1250). Ego83 posted BB (2500). Dealing cards: br8s8: 6d, Kd pantse75: Qs, Ah Sevendeuce79(observer) said: LOL armany folded. br8s8 raised 694 to 3194. pantse75 raised 1806 to 5000. lebada folded. Ego83 folded. pantse75 gets back 1806. Betting round ended. Main pot: 11388 Dealing flop: Qd, 4c, Ac Dealing turn: 7c Dealing river: 2d br8s8 showed: [Ac Kd Qd 7c 6d ] - High card Ace. pantse75 showed: [Ah Ac Qs Qd 7c ] - Two pairs, Aces and Queens. pantse75 won main pot with Two pairs, Aces and Queens. pantse75 won 11388. Hand ended. Sevendeuce79(observer) said: see br u got cheated lebada said: merci
I can't pretend that this lends any credibility to my case here, as I would have made that call too.
What I find especially wierd, is how actively pantse was chatting, and br as well, but lebada never said a single word until now.
There's more hands I can post, showing how aggressive pantse was, min-raising any time someone other than lebada was in the blinds. Whenever lebada was in the blinds and it folded around, he'd check/fold pretty much every hand.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
I just saw 2 hand indicate collusion , hand 1 & 3. Anyway, simply for yachting to make sure what happen, if they check pantse75 and lebada. Any communication between them and how many time they play at same table ? were they do the same ?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by Serpang: I just saw 2 hand indicate collusion , hand 1 & 3. Anyway, simply for yachting to make sure what happen, if they check pantse75 and lebada. Any communication between them and how many time they play at same table ? were they do the same ?
How many times they play at the same table is irrelevant. This is blatant colussion, and even if they only do it once, that's more than enough for a ban. It would be pretty stupid for them to communicate through the tourney chat. Likely over IM or phone etc would be the way it was likely done.
Bottom line, Yachting support tried to justify this play, but there's just no way this was legit.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by Macubaas: I think in general this is a problem of the small poker platforms that can't invest too much money in security.
Still this is no reason for them not to start an investigation if a member notice them of such things!
Well, the problem is that they say they did investigate it, and found nothing foul. Problem is, maybe their security team is just not experienced enough to know what they are looking for. Maybe the problem is they are understaffed, which would explain why it took them 9 freaking days to get back to me. Either way, until this is resolved, my advice is to stay away from the site.
Anyone willing to play there after seeing this, and the fact that they refuse to handle it, should have their head examined. I currently have around 14 euro from the 5 euro starting bonus I got, but I frankly don't care if I never see it.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
I understand your frustration, looking at your HH its kinda smelly but to say its collusion is also a tricky one. A player can do whatever he wants with his chips, collusion is so hard to proof, for example he dont like you cos of (for example) you mouthed him in chat he can do this HH and still he can get away with it. He wants YOU to loose so he can play like that, its no collusion just his tactic. He also maybe wants shorty NOT out so he can bully more? (just my thoughts) Anyway for collusion there must be some connection, country/city/chat ect.
I again understand your frustration but imho skip it cos you cant win this. I played so many games and i learned: - Dont get frustrated over collusion cos your game goes down due to tilt. - Dont chat, chat is just a detraction, also if your having a big mouth other players dont want you to win. - And the last one and maybe most important: DONT have an ego!!!
That was really weird....but if they colluding or not....i think we don't have to change our style of play.....yes i agree that you have a better chance of winning if you see other cards....but you can still win against this kind of players....ill check out this players if i play with them on the tables...
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
While there are signs for it you cant tell 100% sure its a collusion.
And you are saying, its pretty stupid to communicate through the poker chat? Well in my case in the ipoker situation i have mentioned, they were doing exactly that, and the room did nothing, not even a chat ban. Two weeks later they were at the same sng tables, playing at more than one tables at the same time.
I wonder what you would have done there
Since you are convinced about it, let it go and change site
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Such a funny thread...that covo with chat was great.
Now you are playing in a freeroll; trying to analyse play!!
Hand 1 = BS getting pawned by SS...too funny... pantse just went down slow play bully road, he had s**t, got caught out and gave up.(in hand 2 you even say he frequently min raises, so nothing untoward)
Hand 2 - Well, you can't call it collusion as bad as the play was.
Hand 3 - Don't see the problem, it made no odds for when the last 300ish went in, br8s8 just folded to that standard raise you spoke about.
Hand 4 - Yep, again that standard raise, a bit of chat and, no collusion.
Hand 5 - What's the problem...
I just don't see it, you gotta be pretty good to be able to pull off a freeroll hist.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Overall 5 stars for your skillz at tabloid journalism, but I don't think it will go any further than this. Unless you hire a lawyer, and have confidence that its evidence that would stand up to the scrutiny of a court of law.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
The only one that seems suspect to me even a little is the first one, and that depends on context. I would've had to see how they played to know for sure. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were right. Yachting allowing same IP's in there freerolls only so that people from the same house can try the site. I repoted someone for multi accounting, haven't seen them since, but I'm sure they made a new account in a different name. I only reported it because it was so obvious.
I could make a bunch of accounts and play from different pc's in the same room. Thing is for freerolls it's just not worth it. I throw them on the side of other games for fun, otherwise they're not valuable enough.
I agree it's a piss off, but like Doomdy said it's really hard to tell the motivations behind players actions, especially without knowing their hole cards.
My advice: Recognize it happens, will continue to happen, and if you still want to compete, fight fire with fire, multi account or share cards with a buddy. If I see you on the table I'll fold to your blind
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Posted by byng0: This sounds like a Police Dept investigating itself.
Have you tried sending a letter to the Malta licensing Board.
Please do this, I'm actually genuinely curious to see the response.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: Netherlands
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 617
i played latelty a rebuy tourn.. and the shortest stack in tournament...with 1.8 BB did not get raised by the Sb or button...while we needed 2 more players to get knocked out..for all others to win a 8.8$ ticket...
the shortstack was russian the SB was russian The button was russian player..
i got upset cause we all expect an attack on the BB/shortstack to steal his blinds leaving him with a bit more then 1 SB ,but even this is not to be proven as collusion,more as solidarity among fellow countriemen,,
i guess if in same situation ,,,i might have given a dutch player in same situation a break by just let him collect the blinds..while he was shortest stack..at bubble.
I have read some articles on collusion and it seems there was a group of chineze players colluding on pokerstars SNG's ,,mostly i check the field if i enter a sng...if too much of 1 country i skip it and play the next one ,but if there is a deasant mix. i just register and play...
well good luck...and beware...
haven't noticed any collusion on yachtingpoker but ,i always look out for these situations over there,because there not much players,,,the chance this will happen is quite big.
1 more thing , i myself have been accused of colluding in the 4players sng's there bye one player... he got angry because with 3 players left out of 4 ,him being shortstack
he got angry we kept attacking his blinds instead of playing hands against eachother...
of course we attack the shortstack and not the bigstack in this situations...go ahead ..complain and mail support..better stop playing poker ...cost u less energy..that was my response..
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Posted by uhhcallmi: i played latelty a rebuy tourn.. and the shortest stack in tournament...with 1.8 BB did not get raised by the Sb or button...while we needed 2 more players to get knocked out..for all others to win a 8.8$ ticket...
the shortstack was russian the SB was russian The button was russian player..
i got upset cause we all expect an attack on the BB/shortstack to steal his blinds leaving him with a bit more then 1 SB ,but even this is not to be proven as collusion,more as solidarity among fellow countriemen,,
i guess if in same situation ,,,i might have given a dutch player in same situation a break by just let him collect the blinds..while he was shortest stack..at bubble.
I have read some articles on collusion and it seems there was a group of chineze players colluding on pokerstars SNG's ,,mostly i check the field if i enter a sng...if too much of 1 country i skip it and play the next one ,but if there is a deasant mix. i just register and play...
well good luck...and beware...
haven't noticed any collusion on yachtingpoker but ,i always look out for these situations over there,because there not much players,,,the chance this will happen is quite big.
1 more thing , i myself have been accused of colluding in the 4players sng's there bye one player... he got angry because with 3 players left out of 4 ,him being shortstack
he got angry we kept attacking his blinds instead of playing hands against eachother...
of course we attack the shortstack and not the bigstack in this situations...go ahead ..complain and mail support..better stop playing poker ...cost u less energy..that was my response..
Pretty much, I was in a tourney once where my staker was railin' me, I was pretty deep in the cash but lowest stack and my staker peer pressured the big stack to fold to my BB through the chat. It was great there was a lot of chat on the table that nice, a real exciting and friendly game, and no one comlained about collusion. As said above players are allowed to do what they want with their money.
Also the table ganging up on the short stack on FT is standard play. Middles don't want to fight big stacks, and everyone wants the short stack out before he can land a big hand and come back.
Joined: Feb '10
Location: Suriname
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1189
Two months ago I played on Yachting Poker and the player traffic is very low in tournaments and cash games, so my advice is not to waste your time on that site please
