Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1277
This is one area where I feel I need to seriously boost my knowledge on.
People like BemyATM etc drop some knowledge please!
I understand that top pros need this massively to win, because they are playing against people who are that good they need to win pots with fluff.
I'm not talking that level obviously. I know enough that on say a 10 8 q flop if I'm holding less than a queen but have a good flush and straight draw and a club hits the turn I can get them off it depending on the other variables, even though my equity is considerably less on the flop than theirs.
Say in this scenario the pot size is $3000k (600/1200 blinds) - they have 8k in chips, me 8k.
They bet 1800 on the flop. I call. Then they check the turn and I bet. How much should I be betting?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
I'll go ahead and say "it depends". It really comes down to who you're up against. If you're up against a calling station, they won't care what comes on the board, so long as they have any piece. Case in point, donks who'd stack off if they pair even an 8 on the board you stated. No sense in trying to bluff them.
Against a thinking player, I'd say a smaller bet will give you more "credit" than a bigger bet in that spot. It's all about the story you tell, and in those spots, you want to be giving them the impression you're value betting.
The question I have though, is if the blinds are 600/1200, why aren't you shoving if your stack is only 8k?
Fold equity is infinitely more *edit* gtg, finish this later
Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 10090
i think whatever theory says the most important skill you can have is to vary your game constantly- this way you will have a factor of unpredictability and therefore your opponents will be the ones who should consider fold equity hope someone more experienced than me (or google) will aswer your question more deeply
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
In this specific scenario you should have just shoved preflop to not even get into spots like this one,unless you were BB and had to checkl of course. In the specific hand,after the flop betting action the pot is 6.6K and you have 6.2K. Any bet you do should here be an easy push,since any reasonable bet will have you pot commited anyways. It also is an unexploitable play because they cant get you off the hand anymore no matter what. Doing a small bet of like 2K is also possible but only in specific scenarios vs. players you have decent history with,but this is pretty advanced stuff that I wont go over now,fact is making a bet of like 2K makes your hand look either very strong or very weak,it depends on the history you have with your villain. Maintaining fold equity is very important,I'm grinding turbo SNGs so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to losing fold equity,especially for preflop play. If blinds get really high and you just lost a race and are left with 3BB or so you dont have any fold equity anymore because the BB gets at least 2:1 or better,so he will (or at least should) call with any2. Thats why it's very important to loosen up your shoving ranges when you have like 5-8 or so BBs,because anything lower than that will make you lose your fold equity,meaning to chip up you will have to win a race. Having fold equity is often undervalued by some people because they undervalue chipping up by dead money,while it's a very important part of building a stack.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
I'd say retribution is right based on if you have a calling station out there or not. I just watched this player buyin and rebuyin several times, but calling with anything. Finally hits with a 7,5 and takes in 10,000+ chips. Players like this! I don't stand a chance.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by Greenmohave: I'd say retribution is right based on if you have a calling station out there or not. I just watched this player buyin and rebuyin several times, but calling with anything. Finally hits with a 7,5 and takes in 10,000+ chips. Players like this! I don't stand a chance.
Well in the early stages of pretty much any lowstakes buyin MTT, you can expect this kind of play. It's best to just stay uber tight, and call if you get a good hand. I'd say 99+, maybe AQ+. Sure you'll sometimes lose, and sometimes run into a big hand, but the risk is certainly worth the gain. Just don't push it and call too light.
As for my first post, forgot you can't edit after xx minutes, so I'll just repost and finish my thoughts:
I'll go ahead and say "it depends". It really comes down to who you're up against. If you're up against a calling station, they won't care what comes on the board, so long as they have any piece. Case in point, donks who'd stack off if they pair even an 8 on the board you stated. No sense in trying to bluff them.
Against a thinking player, I'd say a smaller bet will give you more "credit" than a bigger bet in that spot. It's all about the story you tell, and in those spots, you want to be giving them the impression you're value betting.
The question I have though, is if the blinds are 600/1200, why aren't you shoving if your stack is only 8k?
Fold equity is infinitely more appicable pre-flop, as opposed to post flop. Reason being, that based on your relative remaining stack sizes, they are likely to be able to call you profitably with less draw odds. A good example is the hand OP posted. On that board, villain is getting 3:1 on the flop, which means they can chase any 34% or better draw profitably. This is a HUGE mistake to get in the spot, because if you had shoved pre-flop, they're going to be folding a larger portion of their range, and thus they'd have less opportunity to call you profitably once you hit the flop.
Like bemy said, it's sometimes better to shove more marginal hands in or out of position, while you still have fold equity, rather than wait for a better hand and have your stack dwindle.
Once you've got around <7bb, I'd say you should be opening up really wide to include any connector cards (67+), any suited face, any ace and 22+. The bottom end up this range is going to do poorly against the calling range of any thinking player, but you'll still get more folds while you've still got a decent stack and thus avoid more flips.
8 
flop if I'm holding less than a queen but have a good flush and straight draw and a club hits the turn I can get them off it depending on the other variables, even though my equity is considerably less on the flop than theirs.
hope someone more experienced than me (or google) will aswer your question more deeply
