Will virtual poker one day completely replace live poker as we know it?
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Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
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Experts predict that paper money will soon disappear. In the future all money will be electronic and transferred using cards, the internet, or your mobile phone. They say that books, real books with paper that you can feel and smell, will one day be confined to museums and antique fairs. CDs are already on their way out in favour of digital tracks sent over the internet and pretty soon with the rise of cloud computing you won't even own a copy on your computer. Everything will exist in the virtual realm.
So the question is, do you think that one day virtual poker will completely replace live poker as we know it?
Joined: Apr '09
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I don't think so - also, a live poker game doesn't require paper money, just plastic chips - which presumably will be around for a long time. Once paper money disappears there'll be a lot more ways to interact with purely electronic money. Other than in movies, it's not like you actually throw around your money when you play live poker, you just use a chip-set at home games or in a casino they have their own chip currency.
Maybe so far into the future that we can't possibly predict now what it will be like. But I say this isn't going to happen in the next 50-100 years.
OTT: Regarding books; good. I switched to an eReader about 6 months ago - best move I ever made. So much easier to read with, access to so much more content. And more environmentally friendly than paper-books.
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The whole idea of giving you chips is so you don't feel like you are playing with money. For me live poker is so much more of a thrill that virtual poker, and that is what people seek, whenever I play on-line now its more of a "oh well" game, live is just too much of a true feeling that can not be replaced, if you have a true passion for the game I recommend it to all, regardless of skill. Hate to say it but on-line is pretty much a stat game than skill, and I'm not that skilled at live, just know I can beat the ods on-line ad it is, at times, boring/repetitive with less a WooHoo.
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Posted by jessthehuman
OTT: Regarding books; good. I switched to an eReader about 6 months ago - best move I ever made. So much easier to read with, access to so much more content. And more environmentally friendly than paper-books.
I find the replacement of paper by electronic digital media rather worrying. We have yet to find a storage medium for electronic data that even comes close to the reliability or longevity of paper. The oldest paper book we know of and still in a legible state dates back to 256 AD. That makes it over 1700 years old. I doubt that any modern data storage methods could match this.
Even if this problem could be overcome would the technology to read it be available in 1700 years time? With paper there is no need for a piece of equipment to retrieve the information it contains. All you need is knowledge of the language it's written in and eyes.
Joined: Apr '09
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Posted by zeroster:
Posted by jessthehuman
OTT: Regarding books; good. I switched to an eReader about 6 months ago - best move I ever made. So much easier to read with, access to so much more content. And more environmentally friendly than paper-books.
I find the replacement of paper by electronic digital media rather worrying. We have yet to find a storage medium for electronic data that even comes close to the reliability or longevity of paper. The oldest paper book we know of and still in a legible state dates back to 256 AD. That makes it over 1700 years old. I doubt that any modern data storage methods could match this.
Even if this problem could be overcome would the technology to read it be available in 1700 years time? With paper there is no need for a piece of equipment to retrieve the information it contains. All you need is knowledge of the language it's written in and eyes.
I hear this a lot. And I don't really buy it to be honest, there are so many 'virtual' libraries being built up. Not just online bookstores, but incredible libraries / catalogues too.
The formats will continually be updated with technology.. It's not like an old cd where in 1700 years there'll be no cd-player to play it with. It's online - the media is constantly being updated and reformatted to go with technology.
One could argue an apocalypse or some such thing - but that's a moot point, these types of cataclysmic events are obviously bad, that's the whole point. In the past libraries and such have been raised to the ground when civilizations have fell.
Disaster can always destroy culture; there's no way around that. And you cite all the books that have survived over the last 2000 years? Well, for those dating back beyond the 19th century, I'd wager that there's a vast amount more that didn't survive. And if you're talking pre 10th century, then I'd wager the vast majority hasn't survived.
I don't see paper as some incredible medium that can survive the ages. I see that there's a small collection of written work that's survived the centuries, but not much. Personally - I think an electronic medium is more secure. Virtual backups are so much easier, the idea of a 'rare' book will soon be an abstract concept.
Joined: Apr '09
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Posted by zeroster: You make some good points there Jess especially the one about the volume of work that hasn't survived.
I'm almost convinced.
Interestingly I just did some research then, I was actually trying to find some proper evidence one way or the other (in terms of studies done by experts) and I couldn't find much. However - I did read some proper studies of how green paper books are vs eReaders.. Now obviously bigger tablets/reader like iPads and other full-sized tablets score lower, and the smaller eReaders like 1st gen Kindles, nooks, etc score higher..
Anyway it's fairly inconclusive - with paper books you have raw material, plus the environmental (CO2) costs of production, shipping (trucks, boats, planes) etc. And with eReaders you have the costs of manafacturing/shipping + costs of power for when you need to charge the device.. Anyway, basically it seems that the most consistent finding is that the "greenness" of eReaders increases as the volume of books read increases.
So for an average reader, of say 20 books a year, after year1 the device (eReader) should have paid for it's in terms of CO2 emission.. And then after that, so long as you continue to read around 20 e books per year, you'll continue to have a much lower CO2 footprint than if you read same amount of paper books.
However - if you only read 1 book a year or so, in theory it would be more CO2 footprint to do so on an electronic device - so for medium-high volume readers - generally speaking, eReaders are more environmentally friendly. But for low-volume readers, it's probably more enviro friendly to just read a couple of paper books each year.
Obviously with eReaders - if you buy a tablet/smart-phone that's being manafactured as a 'green' device, then they're better again. And like wise if you can recharge your device with renewable clean energy (like solar panels) then you're winning by a mile.
Anyway, that's probably enough OTT derailing lol. Sorry Awood!
EDIT: Just one other thing, I would like to point out that what I wrote regarding electronic lasting longer than paper is purely an unqualified opinion. I really have no idea, that's just how I think based on my own experience and thought process. I'd be curious to see what the expert/scientific consensus is on the subject actually, because I do often wonder and I do here that argument against ebooks quite a bit.
if anyone can be bothered doing some proper research (I'm currently studying for exams _ ) then I'd love to hear the result, please cite your source(s) though.
Edited by jessthehuman (27 August 2012 @ 05:23 GMT)
Joined: Nov '09
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I think live poker has a better chance of surviving than online. Firstly, governments worldwide are sticking their noses into online, regulating it, restricting it and taking a piece of the pie. Secondly, the live game is much richer in terms of the characters you meet, the styles of play, the table presence people project, figuring out "tells" and such, that it makes the two out to be very different. I find online to be very mechanical, especially since I play mostly multi-table cash. Online MTT when you go deep has a better sense of accomplishment when you beat out a big field. One more comment: in online play when somebody types into the chat box "I'm gonna punch your teeth in", it's probably not going to happen. Live however, much better chance of it going down!
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Posted by mahdrof: I think live poker has a better chance of surviving than online. Firstly, governments worldwide are sticking their noses into online, regulating it, restricting it and taking a piece of the pie.
That is a very good point. Although - I think it depends if you extend the online poker definition too -> electronic poker in general and then include all the electronic/computerised 'poker tables' being installed in casinos these days.. Not sure how many of you have access to large casinos - but I know Melbournes Crown Poker Room has started putting in electronic poker tables, that are kind of like a live/online hybrid.. Since you can see the people but there's no chips or cards on the table; everyone has their own screen to go by.
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Maybe this will all become true in the future, but I guess not during my lifetime (and I hope to make about 40 years more ). Me personally will never get used to reading a book online/on an eletronic medium. I need a paper book in my hands.
Joined: Feb '08
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Don't worry about it Jess. As a media student, your discussion is right up my alley. The truth is electronic media has the potential to last as long if not longer than paper as it can be infinitely transferred and copied to other sources but it's also so easy to destroy/wipe over. Digital media is what we call a hot medium. Most of it is lost very quickly because there is so much of it. I can't remember the actual quote but someone told me there has been more information created in the last thirty years than the rest of history combined. Just think of all those texts and emails that get deleted as irrelevant. How is it different to the pictures drawn on pots and the everyday writing we have discovered from thousands of years ago.
What is more interesting I think is that digital media is uniforming everything. Words, photographs, video and computer instructions all look and act the same within a computer chip. The universality of digital media has both good and bad points. It does mean that tools are also becoming uniform. A doctor, a filmmaker, a book-seller, a teacher and an author all use the computer. Very different roles are united by digital media.
So in terms of poker, is it hard to imagine virtual cards (holograms) replacing normal cards in a casino. This allows players in casinos all around the world to play each other. And then eventually, even without the hologram equipment that would eventually become cheap and portable enough to be included in your mobile phone, the data would be sent to computers in the home. And there would be no difference between playing at home and playing live in the casino.
I hope not though because I agree with b1gfoot that nothing compares to holding real cards and facing real people. But nothing escapes the 'progress' of technology.
Joined: Mar '11
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I'd just like to interject my 2 cents into the totally derailed topic of paper vs electronic literature.
A concern raised was the longevity of paper vs electronic storage. While it's true that the proper grade of paper could "outlive" conventional storage several times over, you have to look at other factors. 1 paper book is as big, if not substantially bigger than 1 computer hard drive. 1 Computer hard drive of just 1 TB (Pretty much standard by todays standards) could easily store 10's of thousands of books. That by itself isn't impressive, but if you think of how many times over you can redundantly backup those 10's of thousands of books across several hundred hard drives, you increase the "longevity" of the digital storage to pretty much equal that of paper.
Now realistically, there are literally TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of TB of data out and even more empty space waiting to house that data.
I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass, but say the entire worlds history, every book ever written, every pamphlet, note etc was collectively stored digitally, I can guarantee that there's enough raw storage in the "digital world" to store that entire collection several million times over.
Barring a complete world wide disaster that destroyed every single hard drive/storage device in the entire world, I think it's safe to say that the collection would remain unscathed. In fact, I'm sure new age "libraries" will be data storage centers, where complete backups of the collection will be stored in order to ensure the collection is preserved. Much the same way websites are housed and backed up.
I for one am happy to be seeing the end of the paper era. Trees are a part of our worlds ecosystem. We, as well as virtually every other living thing in this planet need them to survive. I've worked in enough offices, and always HATED how wasteful our society is when it comes to paper, especially since it fills our landfills and rapes the earth of much needed trees. While it's unfortunate that the manufacturing and running of electronic devices contribute to harmful bi-products, we'll eventually evolve to the point where that problem will be remedied as well.
Edited by retribution (27 August 2012 @ 09:53 GMT)
Joined: Mar '12
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Another interesting point.
Will there simply be electronic tables for live poker?
You receive two holecards on some slim devices randomly shuffled by a computer. The dealer emrely points out winners and is there to uphold the rules, no shuffling involved.
The 5 board cards are lit up as the betting goes round.
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by mahdrof: I think live poker has a better chance of surviving than online. Firstly, governments worldwide are sticking their noses into online, regulating it, restricting it and taking a piece of the pie.
That is a very good point. Although - I think it depends if you extend the online poker definition too -> electronic poker in general and then include all the electronic/computerised 'poker tables' being installed in casinos these days.. Not sure how many of you have access to large casinos - but I know Melbournes Crown Poker Room has started putting in electronic poker tables, that are kind of like a live/online hybrid.. Since you can see the people but there's no chips or cards on the table; everyone has their own screen to go by.
They installed that system at the Montreal casino a few years ago, but I think it has since been removed (can anybody confirm this out there?). IMO removing chips and cards from live play takes away a big part of the live experience. There are so many things you can do with your chips and with your cards during a game, like trying to deceive your opponents by firmly placing a big stack of chips as you raise with a bluff, or meekly putting in a sucker bet as you hold the nuts hand, or reversing that strategy to play mind games, and the list goes on. When I first started live, raising with AA I had trouble to control my hand from shaking a bit as I put the chips in!
I love them both though, as online gives me the chance to play when I want, where I want, and with anonymity when I make a dumb move!
Joined: Feb '09
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oh it's going to happen the government has wanted paperless money for a long time now...you see once all your money is online and virtual and the government doesn't like a post you made on the internet or the fact you were at the latest protest like the big one coming up in tampa they will just hit a button and bam no more money for you..this will be tyranny at it's best people should be very worried about this and other things the government has in store for you...they want us all walking around like robots....oh yeah you don't have to worry about this affecting poker for there will be no poker when these times come...wait and see...
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According to me, live poker isn't going any where. It's a huge differens playing live and playing online. As far as I'm concerne the only technology that should be involved is a card shuffler machine, a TV broadcast if the game is of interest and security cameras to make sure noone is cheating.
About the off topic discussion: Yes, digitally storing books etc is a easier and more convinient method. It also has the posibility of surviving for a long long time and possibly even longer then any other method. Sure, a physical book made of paper is in some ways more secure then a digital copy since a hard drive can crash at any time. But you have to think about that digitally stored information does not get old in the sense that it deteriarates like all matherial on the earth does. Sure, a hard drive deteriarates but it can just be replaced by a new one and the unformation will still be there in the exact same condition.
Now, some people are gonna say that replacing hard drives isn't good for the enviroment. But think, replace one hard drive the contains well over 1000 books is more enviromental friendly then having 1000 paper books. Also, the old hard drives can be recykled so that way you won't use as much raw matherial as the 1000 books would and we actually catch up with the raw material, new information (books) will be available digitally with no extra cost on the enviroment.
Here in Canada the gov has already started replacing paper money with composite money. They started with the 50's and 100's and I think now the 20's. Soon all denominations will be replaced. As for virtural money we've have a form of that as well with our interac bank cards that are tied directly to our bank accounts. I've used my interac card all over the world to withdraw money in the local currency without any problems and the exchange rate is processed automatically. As far as poker goes surely I'm able to purchase chips in any currency and demonination as long as I can use my interac card live or online. Credit cards are virtural as well no real money exchanges hands until one pays the bill. We're there already. The only thing left is the expansion of composite paper made into actual books for people who still want a hard copy. So online or live "paper money" is on it's way out and composite and virtual money is in.
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Live poker is a game that will stick through time. Its nothing that you can replace with. The rush and the excitement is much different between the two of them. Is it the same playing in an online casino, with playing in a live one
_ ) then I'd love to hear the result, please cite your source(s) though.
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