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I think you should be careful with the type of notes you wrote down on your opponents. Ok, this time everything went just like you were waiting for, and the info you had about him sure helped you doing that last call (among with the 2k chips you had left in case you lost this hand), but it was risky. Your opponent checked on the flop and on the turn and goes all-in at the river after the Ace coming to the table... I would definitely think twice and perhaps fold if i had time to read the whole hand like i just did here, but that can only mean i'm still just a fish like this vilain
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Posted by Fakiry: I think you should be careful with the type of notes you wrote down on your opponents. Ok, this time everything went just like you were waiting for, and the info you had about him sure helped you doing that last call (among with the 2k chips you had left in case you lost this hand), but it was risky. Your opponent checked on the flop and on the turn and goes all-in at the river after the Ace coming to the table... I would definitely think twice and perhaps fold if i had time to read the whole hand like i just did here, but that can only mean i'm still just a fish like this vilain
''Fish''(opinion not fact) was not the note i had on him but i simplified it for mobsters. I was 90% sure i had him beat due to the notes i had on this player and how he played this particular hand. I basically snap called him.
Okay, second barrel fired. Initial raiser check-calls. Bells should be ringing at this point.
Posted by Nightmare161: *** RIVER *** [4d 6s 5c Ts] aeropolis99: bets 3720 Nightmare327: calls 3720
Initial min-raiser, who check called previous 2 streets now fires a pot size bet on the river when an ace drops, and you....call for pretty much the rest of your stack with complete air. Based on his previous actions, the ace isn't even what concerns me, the fact he min-raised and check called 2 previous rounds and then bets despite the ace hitting is a big concern. Sure he showed up with total air and you won, but that's a ridiculous call.
I think the thread is mis-titled, it should be titled "Donk call" or perhaps "Bonehead call". I mean no offense, but I think you really can't justify this call, despite any "notes" you may have.
Edited by retribution (11 January 2013 @ 20:41 GMT)
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Posted by retribution: I think the thread is mis-titled, it should be titled "Donk call" or perhaps "Bonehead call". I mean no offense, but I think you really can't justify this call, despite any "notes" you may have.
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All feedback is appreciated whether positive or negative. Every decision i made is from using previous notes,hands played with him,hands i observed him play and seen at showdown.
Are you saying i should ignore his previous actions because he min raised preflop retribution?(Omg he must have a strong hand ,he was constantly min raising and playing like a fish by the way). He check called the flop and turn(drawing based on what he done next and history) and then proceeded to donk overbet all in(he narrowed is range to value hand or a bluff) on the river when a SCARE card hit instead of value betting which i believe would be the logical play for an Ax hand(what hand does he put me on that he thinks i would call/fold to his fishy all in?) .The next question i asked myself is would he play an Ax like this. I concluded it would very unlikely he would have an Ax at showdown based on HIS PREVIOUS ACTIONS, so the only thing left was he missed his draw(calling flop and turn) and was trying to buy/steal the pot at river.
To put this in perspective for you i have never called so fast before with air but as you stated maybe it was a ridiculous call.
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Posted by Macubaas: Nice hand and this really shows once again how important is to have stats and notes on your opponents!
I think against an unknown player this hand would have gone in a very different way
My thoughts exactly.
Edited by Nightmare161 (12 January 2013 @ 00:58 GMT)
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Posted by Nightmare161: All feedback is appreciated whether positive or negative. Every decision i made is from using previous notes,hands played with him,hands i observed him play and seen at showdown.
Don't take my advice in a negative way.
Posted by Nightmare161: Are you saying i should ignore his previous actions because he min raised preflop retribution?
No, but to call someone down like that, it helps to have something to call with.
Posted by Nightmare161: (Omg he must have a strong hand ,he was constantly min raising and playing like a fish by the way).
K, but you had absolutely nothing. That may work at the big boy tables, but at the micros, I don't see this being a good long-term move. Too many ways the board can connect with their range.
Posted by Nightmare161: He check called the flop and turn(drawing based on what he done next and history) and then proceeded to donk overbet all in(he narrowed is range to value hand or a bluff) on the river when a SCARE card hit instead of value betting which i believe would be the logical play for an Ax hand(what hand does he put me on that he thinks i would call/fold to his fishy all in?) .The next question i asked myself is would he play an Ax like this.
No, the question you should be asking, is WHAT he could min-raise, check-call 2 streets and then "donk-shove" with when a scare card hits.
Posted by Nightmare161: I concluded it would very unlikely he would have an Ax at showdown based on HIS PREVIOUS ACTIONS, so the only thing left was he missed his draw(calling flop and turn) and was trying to buy/steal the pot at river.
He was OOP and you were firing pot sized bets. He then changed gears and shoved. It never entered into your head he already had a made hand, and wasn't afraid of the ace, but though maybe the ace hit you and you were calling no matter what?
Maybe I'm just a nit, but I tend not to call-down "donks" with air, because too often they will show up with something. I mean on that board, even pocket 2's has you beat. If you had at least a pair, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but you had K high.
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Posted by retribution:
Posted by Nightmare161: All feedback is appreciated whether positive or negative. Every decision i made is from using previous notes,hands played with him,hands i observed him play and seen at showdown.
Don't take my advice in a negative way.
That was a bad choice of words, what i should have said was whether i agree or disagree with your overall opinion on it being a bad or good call.
Posted by Nightmare161: Are you saying i should ignore his previous actions because he min raised preflop retribution?
No, but to call someone down like that, it helps to have something to call with.
Fair enough.
Posted by Nightmare161: (Omg he must have a strong hand ,he was constantly min raising and playing like a fish by the way).
K, but you had absolutely nothing. That may work at the big boy tables, but at the micros, I don't see this being a good long-term move. Too many ways the board can connect with their range.
I believe i had his range dominated based on his check calls and hud stats/notes..I agree with the rest of what you said.
Posted by Nightmare161: He check called the flop and turn(drawing based on what he done next and history) and then proceeded to donk overbet all in(he narrowed is range to value hand or a bluff) on the river when a SCARE card hit instead of value betting which i believe would be the logical play for an Ax hand(what hand does he put me on that he thinks i would call/fold to his fishy all in?) .The next question i asked myself is would he play an Ax like this.
No, the question you should be asking, is WHAT he could min-raise, check-call 2 streets and then "donk-shove" with when a scare card hits.
He could min raise any two decent cards based on his history but does a player not narrow his hand range when he check calls instead of continuation bet.
[QUOTE]Posted by Nightmare161: I concluded it would very unlikely he would have an Ax at showdown based on HIS PREVIOUS ACTIONS, so the only thing left was he missed his draw(calling flop and turn) and was trying to buy/steal the pot at river.
He was OOP and you were firing pot sized bets. He then changed gears and shoved. It never entered into your head he already had a made hand, and wasn't afraid of the ace, but though maybe the ace hit you and you were calling no matter what?
I was firing no more than 2/3 of the pot if even that much, i was slightly worried when he made the turn call but my mind was put at ease when he river overbet all in(3200 in to 2600) as that narrowed is hand range to complete air or value hand. i would not have called his bet if he played this hand any differently(eg value bet the river) or if i had kj and we would not be discussing this hand.
[QUOTE] Maybe I'm just a nit, but I tend not to call-down "donks" with air, because too often they will show up with something. I mean on that board, even pocket 2's has you beat.
I was 90%+ sure i had the best hand based on everything i have mentioned and had roughly 2000 chips left in case of the slim chance i was wrong.(10minblindstrutures). Did i not come to the right conclusion?.
Edited by Nightmare161 (12 January 2013 @ 15:37 GMT)
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Hey look - going against the grain here a bit, I really don't mind the call !
It's a classic case of a 'polarised range'. Meaning they're representing a super-strong hand - so either they have the nuts, or close to it, or they have air.. Basically these sorts of (hero) calls are in some ways easier to make than if they actually just did a small (thin value) bet. When someone makes such a huge river bet - they're really doing one of two things
A) Trying to exert maximum value from a monster hand B) Trying to make you fold, because they've missed their draw
If they just had a pair or something like that, obviously they would just do a more standard line like check/call - or a small thin value bet.
Basically - as with all river calls - you just need to work out your pot odds and then figure if you are ahead often enough to make it an EV call. With polarised bets - this is a fairly easy decision, instead of assigning complex ranges as you may do with other lines the villain has taken, it's really more of a 50:50 sort of thing, not so much as in they'll always have a hand 50% of the time, but more in relation to the idea that there's only two hands they're going to have: either the nuts or complete air. Now with better opponents, you generally assume that they should be waited towards the nuts more often - otherwise it's generally a leak. However - if you have a read that they're a fish/donkey - then you can assume it IS a weak and that they're doing it as a bluff too often - and you can quite often make the call every time, simply because they're donking off their stack often enough that so long as the river bet isn't a huge over-bet, you're probably getting decent pot odds to make the call with Ace high (or K high when an ace is on the table).
That said - if it's a huge over-bet - like say 3-4 times the size of the pot - it's almost always correct to fold, since in these cases you have to be ahead a really huge percentage of the time to make it a correct call. Unless you have a solid read (multiple samples) that they tend to over-bet bluff the river with missed hands.
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Posted by jessthehuman: Hey look - going against the grain here a bit, I really don't mind the call !
It's a classic case of a 'polarised range'. Meaning they're representing a super-strong hand - so either they have the nuts, or close to it, or they have air.. Basically these sorts of (hero) calls are in some ways easier to make than if they actually just did a small (thin value) bet. When someone makes such a huge river bet - they're really doing one of two things
A) Trying to exert maximum value from a monster hand B) Trying to make you fold, because they've missed their draw
If they just had a pair or something like that, obviously they would just do a more standard line like check/call - or a small thin value bet.
Basically - as with all river calls - you just need to work out your pot odds and then figure if you are ahead often enough to make it an EV call. With polarised bets - this is a fairly easy decision, instead of assigning complex ranges as you may do with other lines the villain has taken, it's really more of a 50:50 sort of thing, not so much as in they'll always have a hand 50% of the time, but more in relation to the idea that there's only two hands they're going to have: either the nuts or complete air. Now with better opponents, you generally assume that they should be waited towards the nuts more often - otherwise it's generally a leak. However - if you have a read that they're a fish/donkey - then you can assume it IS a weak and that they're doing it as a bluff too often - and you can quite often make the call every time, simply because they're donking off their stack often enough that so long as the river bet isn't a huge over-bet, you're probably getting decent pot odds to make the call with Ace high (or K high when an ace is on the table).
That said - if it's a huge over-bet - like say 3-4 times the size of the pot - it's almost always correct to fold, since in these cases you have to be ahead a really huge percentage of the time to make it a correct call. Unless you have a solid read (multiple samples) that they tend to over-bet bluff the river with missed hands.
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Well I play at micro cash tables and use this strategy.
If I have the draw-hand I make small calls postflop or after the turn .... if I hit my str or fl after the turn I just call their raise and after the turn I reraise to allin.
At the micros you re almost every time called .... and your opponent usually has highest pair or something like that.
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Posted by pochui:
Posted by jessthehuman: It's a classic case of a 'polarised range'
good post, solid ideas, but i honestly feel that if u keep calling with king high the only thing that will be polarized are your balls
It's certainly a marginal spot, regardless.. It's not like calling 2nd nuts or something like that where you know you're EV+ even if you occasionally come up short.. It really is one of those spots (hero calling A or K high) where it's more of a fine-tune.. To be honest - these sorts of hero calls for polarised range river spots are a LOT more relavant for mid+ stakes in ring games, much less so in tournament strategy. Simply because in a MTT/SNG it's not about getting your chips in every time you have enough equity in a pot to make the call, you also have to consider your bubble factor (elimination, prize tiers, bubbles, etc).
In a ring game - you should make literally every single call where you're likely to come out ahead in the long run (so if you're getting 50:50 pot odds and you suspect you're good 51% of the time, then you call every time). However - in a SNG or MTT unless you're down to HU - it's usually wrong to call when you're only good 51% of the time, as it doesn't translate to being cEV+
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Posted by pochui: good post, solid ideas, but i honestly feel that if u keep calling with king high the only thing that will be polarized are your balls
Lol, you never fail to add humor to the subject lol.
Posted by jessthehuman: It's certainly a marginal spot, regardless..
I really wouldn't consider calling a donk-shove for around 3/4 of your stack with K high a "marginal" spot. This is one of the few times I guess I'll have to disagree with you here. I mean, even if villain missed a draw, if they have literally any piece of the board, op is fucked. Sure you'll see donks throwing chips away in an attempt to bluff, but the thing about micros is, they will hold onto ANY hand with an A in it for dear life.
You'll never convince me that calling off 3/4 of your stack with complete air because you "think" they are bluffing is a correct move. Not at the micros anyways.
Also, nightmare, sure you would have had around 2k in chips left, BUT if you look at the situation you're in if you lose, it's not good. 2k puts you at around an M of 12, which basically puts you in shove/fold mode. So instead of folding, and being in a position where you have the chips to lean on the rest of the table, and play more marginal hands, you're left in a spot where any hand you play, you're basically putting your tournament on the line.
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Posted by retribution:
You'll never convince me that calling off 3/4 of your stack with complete air because you "think" they are bluffing is a correct move. Not at the micros anyways.
You're probably right at the micros..
But standard level-1 thinking would dictate that if villain had a 'piece of the flop' (otherwise known as show-down value) they probably wouldn't shove, they would rather check it down or check/call so they can see a cheap showdown in case their pair or whatever is good.. A shove on the other hand more leans towards they either have the nuts and want that call, or they want you to fold.. It's pretty rare they're shoving a semi-weak hand like a pair hoping you call it with air.. But then again.. level-2,3,4, etc thinking is when you start 'range merging' so to speak, it's a pretty nifty trick to start mixing medium pairs and such into your river shoving range, so it's no longer polarised... But yeah, it all really comes down to where you put your villains thought process
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by retribution:
You'll never convince me that calling off 3/4 of your stack with complete air because you "think" they are bluffing is a correct move. Not at the micros anyways.
You're probably right at the micros..
But standard level-1 thinking would dictate that if villain had a 'piece of the flop' (otherwise known as show-down value) they probably wouldn't shove, they would rather check it down or check/call so they can see a cheap showdown in case their pair or whatever is good.. A shove on the other hand more leans towards they either have the nuts and want that call, or they want you to fold.. It's pretty rare they're shoving a semi-weak hand like a pair hoping you call it with air.. But then again.. level-2,3,4, etc thinking is when you start 'range merging' so to speak, it's a pretty nifty trick to start mixing medium pairs and such into your river shoving range, so it's no longer polarised... But yeah, it all really comes down to where you put your villains thought process
Well I learned a long time ago, that in the micros, you can't think beyond level 1, because your opponents don't. Basically everyone plays based on their cards, so you can't think too deeply, otherwise you end up leveling yourself.
Stick to the basics. Bet sizes mean nothing usually. Although 1 thing that's consistent, is that a check-raise is always a monster. Same with min-raises. Beyond that, a pot size+ shove could mean anything from "I'm a retard" to "ZOMG I IZ VALUE BETTING".
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by pochui:
Posted by jessthehuman: It's a classic case of a 'polarised range'
good post, solid ideas, but i honestly feel that if u keep calling with king high the only thing that will be polarized are your balls
To be honest - these sorts of hero calls for polarised range river spots are a LOT more relavant for mid+ stakes in ring games, much less so in tournament strategy. Simply because in a MTT/SNG it's not about getting your chips in every time you have enough equity in a pot to make the call, you also have to consider your bubble factor (elimination, prize tiers, bubbles, etc).
Interesting point.
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Posted by retribution:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by retribution:
Well I learned a long time ago, that in the micros, you can't think beyond level 1, because your opponents don't.
True but i would rather say you can't always think beyond level 1.
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Posted by pochui:
Posted by jessthehuman: It's a classic case of a 'polarised range'
good post, solid ideas, but i honestly feel that if u keep calling with king high the only thing that will be polarized are your balls
LOL
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Well I learned a long time ago, that in the micros, you can't think beyond level 1, because your opponents don't.
I would rather you said you can't always think beyond level 1 but i agree.
------------ Also, nightmare, sure you would have had around 2k in chips left, BUT if you look at the situation you're in if you lose, it's not good. 2k puts you at around an M of 12, which basically puts you in shove/fold mode. So instead of folding, and being in a position where you have the chips to lean on the rest of the table, and play more marginal hands, you're left in a spot where any hand you play, you're basically putting your tournament on the line.
Edited by Nightmare161 (13 January 2013 @ 13:40 GMT)
