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Joined: May '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 58 (M)
Posts: 1372
Posted by retribution: Okay, so you call, they call and flop comes 8910 all of 1 suit you have neither of. 1 blind then puts in the rest of your chips. What about if the board comes A59? JJQ? What do you do then? What if they are bluffing, you fold, but shover wins. What if the board comes Axx and 1 of the blinds shove you call and both the blind and UTG show low aces. They chop and you're fucked. I've seen similar scenarios like that a lot. You can't rely on other players to make the right move, because quite often they are stupid beyond all comprehension. Poker isn't a team game, every player at the table is out to take your money.
There are lot's of scenarios where one of the blinds could push you out of the hand or end up knocking you out.
A) They are total idiot fish B) One has a monster C) They have no idea that them calling inflates the pot should shorty win. D) Etc.
And based on C is another reason why asking one or both of the blinds along is a bad idea. It inflates the pot should shorty win, giving them that many more chips. Not that it's really relevant who has what chips afterwards, but it does quite heavily shift the balance against you.
Why create any scenario where there's a chance you could lose. You're 87% favorite to win against all but 1 hand UTG could have, and even if he has Aces you're not completely dead. If he has aces, he's the 87% favorite, whereas if 1 blind comes in, his chances only drop to I think 68%. I won't bother doing the math, but against ATC he's still live unless you both have 1 of his cards.
I'm sorry, I just don't see many scenarios where 1 of the blinds is going to risk 1/3 of their stack on the bubble playing out well for you.
Hmm... you do make some good points. I'm not 100% convinced but it's certainly food for thought.
Joined: Mar '11
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Posted by Greenmohave: I play SnG's for the most part and like to think I win my share or at least which definitely has nothing to do with the question at hand. Since I see alot of players going allin with rarely nothing I would have to call since I think the player has a small pair or an AK, AQ at the most. It's all based on the buyin also. If I'm playing with a $1.10 buyin I'm calling KK just because I feel it's a value bettin hand in this case, but I'm not that experienced, but that's my call.
Oh 1 hundo percent you'd call that spot with KK, every single time. I'm really surprised anyone would consider folding, you've got KK ffs. If you don't call with KK, what the hell do you call with? Pocket royal flushes are pretty rare, same with pocket quads
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Posted by retribution: If you don't call with KK, what the hell do you call with? Pocket royal flushes are pretty rare, same with pocket quads
It's not about calling. I would fold everything when I'm on a bubble and play on the SnG DoN - it cause unnecessary risk, when some call and there is chance, that someone may check him, eliminate him = you got profit... I would fold even AA... because you may got bad flop, bad beat etc.
Posted by zeroster: I'd call. As it's a DoN raising would be the wrong thing to do. You really want the SB and BB to come along giving three chances to knock out the short stack.
I'm no DoN whiz, definitely not a master of the format - but this would be my line of thinking too, sounds about right to me.
Yup, calling is definetly the thing to do here. Shover only has 11 BB at this point, so I expect his range to be very wide. He doesn't need an ace to do that.
If one of the big stacks on the blinds shoves over the top, you have to assume he has aces, or maybe QQ or AKs, unless he's a complete moron... I would probably fold QQ or AK in that situation, but KK? Never.
Joined: May '11
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Posted by TheMachineQC:
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by zeroster: I'd call. As it's a DoN raising would be the wrong thing to do. You really want the SB and BB to come along giving three chances to knock out the short stack.
I'm no DoN whiz, definitely not a master of the format - but this would be my line of thinking too, sounds about right to me.
Yup, calling is definetly the thing to do here. Shover only has 11 BB at this point, so I expect his range to be very wide. He doesn't need an ace to do that.
If one of the big stacks on the blinds shoves over the top, you have to assume he has aces, or maybe QQ or AKs, unless he's a complete moron... I would probably fold QQ or AK in that situation, but KK? Never.
Given the situation it would be moronic for the big stacked blinds to do anything other than flat call even with AA, they have absolutely nothing to gain from shoving. After all they should want the shorty busted just as much as we do. However these morons do exist, I've seen them shove on the bubble in satellites, so retributions line has some merit also.
I still think I'm just flatting though and hoping that the blinds recognise the situation for what it is.
Posted by zeroster Given the situation it would be moronic for the big stacked blinds to do anything other than flat call even with AA, they have absolutely nothing to gain from shoving. After all they should want the shorty busted just as much as we do. However these morons do exist, I've seen them shove on the bubble in satellites, so retributions line has some merit also.
I still think I'm just flatting though and hoping that the blinds recognise the situation for what it is.
With AA, either of the blinds may well shove, he only has to beat one of you (assuming you'd call).
Joined: May '11
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Posted by marqis: With AA, either of the blinds may well shove, he only has to beat one of you (assuming you'd call).
Yep fair point but if you shove with the KK rather than call and the blind has AA you're in that situation already. If you just flat and he decides to shove you do at least have the option to fold.
Joined: Mar '11
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Posted by zeroster:
Posted by marqis: With AA, either of the blinds may well shove, he only has to beat one of you (assuming you'd call).
Yep fair point but if you shove with the KK rather than call and the blind has AA you're in that situation already. If you just flat and he decides to shove you do at least have the option to fold.
Which is why I don't like the idea of flatting. Calling off half our stack and then folding is not a line we should be taking. We have a lot more at risk than either of the blinds do. If we call and then fold, we've lost half our stack and are short now. If they shove and we fold and UTG wins, they still have around 20+bb left, so it's no sweat off their back.
IMO, us shoving signals to the blinds "back off buds, I got this guy". Sure them getting involved cuts down UTG's chances, but also puts us at risk which is something we don't want to happen.
Forgot to mention: People who think folding is a good play need to think about the blinds increasing. What are they gonna do when blinds gets to 400 and they are now short stacked from folding every one of their blinds to short stacks pushing them around? I can understand that they don't want to take "unnecessary" risk, but folding too much can also be risky. Let's not forget poker is gambling...
Having KK when short stack shoves on the bubble is a gift from the poker gods. I don't think any good player would even consider a fold here. If you get sucked out, you still have chips. If you win the hand, it's over and you make all the other nits happy.
EDIT: zeroster and retribution --> If BB or SB shoves over the top, you're pot commited anyways so you shouldn't even think about folding. You're still most likely going to win because the smallest of the 2 losing stacks will be the bubble boy... Pre flop, I think the flat call looks even stronger than a re-shove, but it doesn't really make any difference 99% of the time. Shoving is ok of course, but I wouldn't mind BB coming along to reduce UTG's chances wich is why I like the flat call.
Edited by TheMachineQC (16 January 2013 @ 09:41 GMT)
Joined: May '11
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Yeah I still prefer the flat call but the more retribution posts the more I see his point of view. I think both lines have their merits. The only thing we shouldn't be doing here is folding.
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both retribution & zeroster have their valid points here imo. zeroster wants to take the safer route- it's fairly wise to take less risk when you are not the smallest stack & there are 2 guys in trouble with really short stacks. you can bump into aa, which leaves you with unnecessary risk to be knocked out in 6th. however retribution is thinking solidly in terms of percentages, long term correct move etc.- in other words: he suggest to make the "correct decision poker wise". folding is not an option imo, no guarantees that guys behind you are gonna call at all, or they might just call with crap holdings, just to try to knock out the small stack, which can easily lead to small stack becoming a mid stack... i would go all-in, unless i'm running super bad for the day, then i might just flat call hoping no one else enters the hand
Joined: Apr '10
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I guess we all had to agree that fold, its absolutely not the right move. If you raise or call you're doinkg the right thing.
Pocket Kings its suck a strong hand, dat i would not be scared to slowplay it. Just snap call on the button, and soon you wll be seeing dat great amount of chips in the middle of the table, moving to your avatar box, saying congratulations you won the first place.
Joined: Mar '09
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At that point with two more players having 2200 chips and me having 4000 and being in bubble, I would have folded. The small stacks will make desperate moves to get more chips and not blinded out. Not that KK isnt a good hand for heads up, but its not a guarantee winner. I would let the big stacks get the snake out of the pit
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Posted by Terroreffekt: So in this situation I would call it. Why would not it still had a few chips on With KK and a short stack goes all in before the flop The short stack had no more than 11 big blinds so he naturally tries to grab the blinds But honestly all give their opinion here, we will want to know later what's really happened?
Many already wrote it, but looking back at my previous comment about this hand and realizing I didn’t talked about the possibility of calling, I would like to say that I am also totally against that move in this case. That would be just a great opportunity to lose chips without even playing the hand. If you call and you get an all-in from one of the opponents with more chips than you, what will be your move? To fold? In that case, you better instant fold before you spend any chips.
Fakiry, obviously you never fold after putting 50% of your chips in pre flop with KK, unless you're a donk. You can't lose the hand unless they both suck out your KK, and I'm pretty sure the players on the blinds would quickly fold in about 99% of the cases. If someone calls, wich should be almost never, you can just check it down untill the showdown, giving you guys more chances to eliminate the short stack.
Calling = pot committing yourself = you're never folding > blinds should know that. so if they shove then it's because they want to help you take out the short stack to end the game.
Joined: Mar '11
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Posted by TheMachineQC: Calling = pot committing yourself = you're never folding > blinds should know that. so if they shove then it's because they want to help you take out the short stack to end the game.
If we just call and blind(s) shove, it's likely because either:
A) they are totally fucking retarded and don't realize if we both check it down, UTG is likely toast and we both win $. B) they have what they think is a monster, and have the mindset that they are definitely taking out at least either us or UTG. C) they are a complete dickhead and are trying to fold us out of the hand and isolate, even though they've got s**t-all and are likely to lose against UTG. D) are watching porn, not paying attention to the table and randomly clicking.
This is why I am so against the flatting option. By flatting, we give the power to one of the blinds. We allow them the option of raising and putting the decision back on us. I'd rather shove and make them make the tough decision.
