Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 67 (M)
Posts: 3361
i was playing the $2 buy-in $5,000 gtd hyper re-buy on Party earlier, 898 entrants and we were about 6 from the money when i got KK in the sb
i had 200,000 chips,blinds were 10,000 / 20,000 someone in mid position goes all-in with 60,000 and then the button re-raises all-in for 180,000 putting me nearly all-in with the bb still to act who had 300,000. So i fold as i was wanting to get ITM ( $13.50 min cash.) bb folds and the re-raiser turns over JK and wins with King high,chit i said to myself any way i went on to finish 79th for $18
Any thoughts was it a bad fold by me, i would have called the first all-in as i had him covered but the re-raise made me think about the min cash so i think i was right as i did cash.
Yeah, bad fold. Never fold kings in a MTT pre flop unless it's live against someone you know has aces... If you're against aces, it's a cooler (bad luck) and move on with ur poker life. I prefer living with bad luck than bad decisions
Right before the cash is when a lot of players widen their range (because most tighten and wait to be in the money before risking their tournament lives so it makes sense to do the opposite) so it (kinda) explains their weak shoves/calls.
Joined: Feb '14
Location: United Kingdom
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I understand - he could have had aces and it DID get you into the money. You knew that, although you probably would win the hand, there was also a good chance you could go out there and then and not cash at all if you called. It would be too easy to say it was a bad fold given that we have hindsight here.. depends on how badly you needed to cash I suppose. anyway - nice win - GL. Go team BRM.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
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Why would you play a MTT at all when your main goal is (seemingly) to get just ITM? If the mincash is as much money to you to make you fold Kinds in this spot then this is simply an MTT you shouldn't play at all. No way you can fold here, not even TT is a fold here! (and that is already considering the good ROI you probably got if you mincash)
Also super thin chance of him having AA here, AA would most likely not shove over the initial shover. There can be sooooo many combo's other than AA in his range (which KJ is def. part of a good range in his spot, can probably go as wide as K9 and be +EV)
Joined: Dec '13
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Posted by teddybears73: i was playing the $2 buy-in $5,000 gtd hyper re-buy on Party earlier, 898 entrants and we were about 6 from the money when i got KK in the sb
i had 200,000 chips,blinds were 10,000 / 20,000 someone in mid position goes all-in with 60,000 and then the button re-raises all-in for 180,000 putting me nearly all-in with the bb still to act who had 300,000. So i fold as i was wanting to get ITM ( $13.50 min cash.) bb folds and the re-raiser turns over JK and wins with King high,chit i said to myself any way i went on to finish 79th for $18
Any thoughts was it a bad fold by me, i would have called the first all-in as i had him covered but the re-raise made me think about the min cash so i think i was right as i did cash.
Hey man KK is a monster hand - that guys range can be anywhere from 99 to AA and AJ-AK - and you crush that. Even JK as you see. That shortstacked guy is not important - even if he runs you over - you still have around 400k from the side pot. I understand that you played that tourney for some time and you want to cash, but this is a huge mistake. You won't get much spots like this one for an easy more-than double up.
Lets say you went all in and won - now you have around 500k and you now have serious shot for a final table - that's 50$ or maybe to win it for 700$. What's that compared to 18$?
Once again - I understand what you are saying, but you must look at thr bigger picture. You play tourney to win it, not just fold your way into the money.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
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Posted by jessthehuman: ahahaha oh man, seriously - don't play poker if you're that much of a p***y. You'll not do well. You need some balls - that was an awful fold.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
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Posted by teddybears73: i had 200,000 chips,blinds were 10,000 / 20,000 someone in mid position goes all-in with 60,000 and then the button re-raises all-in for 180,000 putting me nearly all-in with the bb still to act who had 300,000. So i fold as i was wanting to get ITM ( $13.50 min cash.)
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 5712
Teddybears....... OUCH (from a couple of perspectives).
Firstly the harsh comments above. It can be a difficult decision, but from a positive perspective, the decision making in this situation is made relatively easy from the determination of your mind set.
He are the facts, you paid $2 (£1.30) to win a max of (what?) $1500? You are six away from the bubble and in the money at (what?) $4? You have probably been playing for about 2 hours. You have KK. You probably felt pretty sick that your hand would have beaten everything on the table and you would have more than doubled your pretty stable stack.
Now for the assessments. How would you feel to lose your buy in? How much did you want to win? We're you happy with just making it ITM? We're you content with $18? Would you have liked to win the $1500?
In my honest opinion, The issue appears to be the loss of $2 and the acceptance of making it to ITM!
This is a bad approach to MTTs (even though I find myself in that position from time to time).
Your approach to every MTT is to hit the final table and win. If you don't have that approach you never will.
In games where , for example, everyone who gets in top 40 wins the same prize, (ie, qualifying for another game at a higher level) then folding was probably correct. But not in the game you were playing.
Overall, I guess you feel ok that you won $18, but sick that you folded your kings. As the saying goes, you have to speculate to accumulate. You also have to lose occasionally to win big. Learn and move on! Next time you are in that position don't get too mad if the KJ holds up with a straight. This is poker!
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
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It could be described as a bad fold to most people, but you wanted to make the cash and you did, so it was a good fold. Everybodys circumstances are different so you must do what is good for you, so well done for cashing
Joined: Sep '13
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
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well obviously it worked for you this time around, so gz on that one but i suspect how, in the long run, its a no go and its -ev move. even more so in mtts where the long run is pretty much all that matters, considering how getting itm x100 could net you less money than getting to 1 top 3 finish
but yeah, sometimes -ev calls can be good too short term, thats it. heck ive done my fair share of those calls, sure in theory its a bad call but there are so many things you cant see from just 1 call (like, other players play style, infamous gut feeling, etc etc).
still, a decent cash in which covers your next 10 BI for same format, so maybe you could play a bit more aggro next time around... idk, im just babbling really, just woke up.
Joined: Jan '09
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Posted by BeMyATMplz: Why would you play a MTT at all when your main goal is (seemingly) to get just ITM? If the mincash is as much money to you to make you fold Kinds in this spot then this is simply an MTT you shouldn't play at all. No way you can fold here,
Joined: Sep '11
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bad fold!
I guess you feel ok that you won $18, but sick that you folded your kings. As the saying goes, you have to speculate to accumulate. You also have to lose occasionally to win big. Learn and move on! Next time you are in that position don't get too mad if the KJ holds up with a straight.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 45 (F)
Posts: 2261
Sorry teddybears but I have to agree with everyone else. When I first started playing I would think I had done great with a min cash so after playing well in a tournament I would get close to the bubble and freeze up but over time I realized even I had a chance of reaching the final table. You have just played in a tournament with 898 players and your profit is only a few dollars,there are lots of easier tournaments to play for that sort of profit.If you had won your hand with the kings you would have had a great opportunity to cash for a massive amount comparable to your $18. If you had AA in your next hand would you have folded?If you are in a hand with a set of fives would you fold just in case someone has a set of nines? I think everyone above has been in a similar position and everyone makes the wrong decision at some point but I think,deep down, you know you made the wrong choice. You did beat over 800 players though and that is not easy.
Joined: Nov '11
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Thanks for all the replies mobsters even jesse's I get it was a bad fold hell as soon as i pressed the button i thought so ( although i was ITM after that hand ) and that's why i made a thread on here to ask opinions about it,i tell you this if it happens again i will not fold,it happened i'll get over it. I don't pretend to be a good player so i'm going to do loads of things you guys wouldn't, trial and error i suppose.Anyway thanks again people.
Oh and Jesse,i can accept constructive criticism but there's no need for personal abuse i might be 57 yrs old but if you lived in the U.K i would gladly meet you and you could see for yourself if i was a p***y or not.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
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Actually no matter what the "professionals" here say, i started getting paid, when i started folding hands. When i was after the top places calling in such positions before the money i was always out. Of course the good cashes are on final tables, but since i was rarely reaching that spot i would take the minimum cash any day than nothing at all. And that when it was a considerable amount according to the buy in, im not talking about 10-20 cents
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
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thanks Mober, you know where i'm coming from,how many times just before the bubble have A-rag,8-9 or 10-J beat QQ or KK i've seen it loads of times and a min cash is better than no cash as you say but if i'm in that position again i'll call. no problem with criticism just abuse.
Joined: Apr '09
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Posted by teddybears73: Thanks for all the replies mobsters even jesse's I get it was a bad fold hell as soon as i pressed the button i thought so ( although i was ITM after that hand ) and that's why i made a thread on here to ask opinions about it,i tell you this if it happens again i will not fold,it happened i'll get over it. I don't pretend to be a good player so i'm going to do loads of things you guys wouldn't, trial and error i suppose.Anyway thanks again people.
Oh and Jesse,i can accept constructive criticism but there's no need for personal abuse i might be 57 yrs old but if you lived in the U.K i would gladly meet you and you could see for yourself if i was a p***y or not.
Sorry, I was probably drunk posting that. I apologise, my comments were truly uncalled for, I really can't justify what I said, since you're a nice person and made an honest post.
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Posted by Theapple: considering how getting itm x100 could net you less money than getting to 1 top 3 finish
Spot-on. I know from my own results, the vast majority of my profit comes from top-3 places, not the abundant ITMs I've accrued. Look at sharkscope graphs for MTT players, they're generally not linear - there will be gradual, gradual, gradual - then BAM a big jump up, then repeat. You gotta play for those big finished, that is where MTT profit is made.. You don't get ITM nearly often enough to profit from those min-cashes. And also, *even* if you did manage an overall profit in MTTs just by min-cashing a whole heap, your hourly($/ph) would be awful.
