Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
I too would say you should check/raise the flop... show some strength and see if they back off, or respond with more strength....
The thing that confuses me most is... Why call preflop, call on the flop, call on the turn... but then fold the river? Were you calling on a two-pair draw? If you thought you were ahead on the flop, nothing came out to change that, and the bet on the river was far from huge.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Don't really get why you fold river if you call the turn. River is a pure blank and doesn't really change anything. Villain raised small after 2 limps pre, then double barrels into 3 people. I would've played it the same way with the difference of folding turn already. His range is pretty nutted here and I can't see someone do this often enough for us to call profitably. As played I'd say we have to call river as well if we call turn.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
Don't like it. If we play the hand that passive, we must call the river bet, as the second 3 most likely didn't help our opponent. So if we are good at the turn, we are most likely still good at the river.
Joined: Feb '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 2372
what did you think he had?
I don't like the call on flop/turn, I think you are very weak in a multi-way pot. You should fold, maybe there is an argument for raising to see what others do, but not an argument I would make. Pre-flop I don't mind the call but you need to be flopping a monster or folding.
The river is horrific, if you think you are ahead on turn and call, you must think you are still ahead on river.
In short, call preflop ok, fold the flop.
Edit: I opened the post to write it, then got caught up playing catch with the daughter. Then posted without seeing anyone's replies! Not copying lol
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 2135
you should have raised the flop or the turn , so you can figure out " is he playing a hand or just using his position " and if you raised the turn and he called , he would definitely check back the river if he was playing some kind of a king because now he fear a raise i hated that fold buddy
Joined: Feb '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 2372
Posted by vsemoje:
can u tell me why fold flop ?
i really cant understand how u could fold flop there , i would understand if u said fold preflop
Sure.
I don't mind the call pre-flop because its a multiway pot and you could hit many big hands, including straight and flush. But if you miss, you have to be prepared to let it go.
The flop is a nothing, the hero had top pair, weak kicker, in a multiway pot and that over the longterm is going to be a massive -ev position to be in.
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 2135
Posted by IceQueenAce:
Posted by vsemoje:
can u tell me why fold flop ?
i really cant understand how u could fold flop there , i would understand if u said fold preflop
Sure.
I don't mind the call pre-flop because its a multiway pot and you could hit many big hands, including straight and flush. But if you miss, you have to be prepared to let it go.
The flop is a nothing, the hero had top pair, weak kicker, in a multiway pot and that over the longterm is going to be a massive -ev position to be in.
with all due respect what are you saying is called passive play , top pair in more than 50% of the time is good and jack is not that weak , he is only playing 1.10$ mtt if you gonna wait only for 2 pair or a set or better , you gonna have bad time
Joined: Feb '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 2372
Posted by Skpmorita:
Posted by IceQueenAce:
Posted by vsemoje:
can u tell me why fold flop ?
i really cant understand how u could fold flop there , i would understand if u said fold preflop
Sure.
I don't mind the call pre-flop because its a multiway pot and you could hit many big hands, including straight and flush. But if you miss, you have to be prepared to let it go.
The flop is a nothing, the hero had top pair, weak kicker, in a multiway pot and that over the longterm is going to be a massive -ev position to be in.
with all due respect what are you saying is called passive play , top pair in more than 50% of the time is good and jack is not that weak , he is only playing 1.10$ mtt if you gonna wait only for 2 pair or a set or better , you gonna have bad time
There is a time to be passive and there is time to be aggressive.
When you have top pair, weak kicker and are in a 4 way pot, you ain't ever gonna be good more than 50% of the time. One other in the hand and you must bet out sure, Two is debatable depending on oppo's. Three is surely going to see you behind, especially when you consider villain bet pre-flop, flop, turn and river.
No way do I see raising as +ev in the long-term. Calling is plainly horrible. And that just leaves folding.
What ranges can you put all three oppo's on there, where you think you are ahead more than 50% of the time?
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Portugal
Age: 56 (M)
Posts: 271
So if I would've posted the same hand but folded the flop and asked you for opinion, would you have said I made the absolute best play? Wouldn't it be better to call flop and evaluate on turns, folding there if villain doesn't shut down?
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Netherlands
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 508
I wouldn't slowplay this at the flop! It is a very little chance for him or everyone to raise unless someone has another K... That means that you could've been beaten at the flop already!
If you had bet at the flop, you'd know you were beaten if someone raised you or ou'd take the pot down which is pretty good for JKs IMO!
And as said before you must call the river if you call the turn, remind the rule of thunb: "If a hand is not good enough to raise with you shouldn't call with it"
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by IceQueenAce: It seems I think yes that would have been best play, but others disagree. The beauty of poker, eh
I wouldn't mind seeing some more answers and thoughts tbh
If you're going to put any chips into any pot... make it for one of three reasons - Either because you have a nice hand and you want to build the pot... you are on a draw... or you're "paying" for information.
On the flop in this hand, folding is weak... maybe hero isn't ahead 50% of the time, but the odds were better than 1/1... but calling gives you no information. Nothing. Raising is the only move that will let you know where you are...
If hero calls the river (which I believe he should've done after the flop and turn action), he would've put 800 chips into the pot without ever knowing where he is.
If he raises to 300 on the flop and gets raised, he would know he was behind and would've only lost 360...
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 2135
i get what IceQueenAce trying to say , in any other situation KJ is far from the best hand , but in this one , no one showed strength Flop : Check Check Check Bet ( less than 1/2 pot ) the turn same happened Position is important if you check to him , he is gonna bet ( with any hand ) and put the pressure on you , it doesn't mean he had a hand , only a raise would give you that information All in All : i really think KJ is a winner in this hand , guess we will never know
