Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 218
Final table of a $1.50 KO tourney on PS, 9 remain, I have 22k (3rd), smallest 4.9k, stakes 200/400/50
Dealt AQ early/middle pos, UTG (limps every hand) limps, UTG+1 shoves for 4.9k. Action folds to me. Two larger stacks to act behind me, plus a couple of loose average stacks behind me.
Fold, flat call or raise?
I folded, the button flats and the UTG limer folds, UTG+1 shover showes KJ, button shows KQ.
Joined: Jan '14
Location: Netherlands
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1041
IMO you can atleast not flat call in this situation > if any1 with more chips raises you will have to either throw away 2/9 of your stack or risk all of it.
So either you fold or you shove Imo but since you will play to win i do not think shoving would be bad especially if your cards were suited.
stay okay greetz jeff and gl at them tables & in life
Joined: Feb '13
Location: Slovenia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 554
easy call preflop imo and fold to shoves after u. Your AQ beats utg1 shoving range. And again if someone shoves after u , u have easy fold and u lose just 12bb
Joined: Jul '14
Location: Australia
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 218
Calling in MP not only leaves me vulnerable to a re-shove but also gives really good odds for a bigger stack to call though. Obviously shoving wouldnt be ideal, but re-raising to 10k means i have to call to a re-shove. I'm making myself way too vulnerable OOP, something I'm sure most poker players can identify with
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
The all-in is 12 BB here, and we have a bit over 50. A call and, if a big stack should shove too, a fold would be bad. I can see your reasoning for a fold, but a push would be no mistake in that situation.
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 2688
Fold here you have too much behind you if you get a raise you have to be willing to go all in here if you flat before they play after you and you get big stack afterwards preferably just flat and hope they do not raise and play if not fold and let this hand go and hope for the next one hehe? Anyway good luck mate hope we were helpful and crush those players and hope they still limps and you take there money!
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by vsemoje: easy call preflop imo and fold to shoves after u. Your AQ beats utg1 shoving range. And again if someone shoves after u , u have easy fold and u lose just 12bb
i think shove is too lose with 50bb stack...
Yup exactly this. ICM will probably say fold but it's a KO and a bigger stack will help us later on, especially it's important to have as many players covered as possible for KO reasons.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by BeMyATMplz: it's important to have as many players covered as possible for KO reasons.
People put far too much thought into taking players bounties in these tournies... There were 9 players left, so even if tones took out all of them, he would win an extra $2 in bounties. Which would have been totally insignificant when compared to the rise in cash for each position.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 7371
I dont hate your fold either and i would have probably done the same thing. AQ looks like a pretty hand but if you get called, you are nearly always behind and with your stack, there was time to wait for a better spot
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by yout85:
Posted by BeMyATMplz: it's important to have as many players covered as possible for KO reasons.
People put far too much thought into taking players bounties in these tournies... There were 9 players left, so even if tones took out all of them, he would win an extra $2 in bounties. Which would have been totally insignificant when compared to the rise in cash for each position. Lol, Easy fold IMO, without a second thought.
lol please think logical. What do you think is an average winrate in these? It's about 50% for top regs. One KO more per tourney increases ones ROI by almost 20%. You wanna tell me this isn't worth it?. One KO is worth about 0.3% of the prizepool. Thus, we can make plays that are from ICM perspective -0.3% in nash (which I'd already consider as big ICM mistake) and be breakeven or better. Not to forget the future equity on increasing our stack if we win. You guys all want to differ regulars/turbo/hypers for future play reasons and here you dont even take it into consideration? And then saying "without a second thought", how ridiculously tight do you think his shoving range is here? He should basicly even shove hands like A2s (with the deadmoney of the UTG limper in the pot).
Winrates at KO SNGs are higher than non-KO winrates for a reason. Look up regs that play mostly KO SNGs, I think I haven't seen one whose winrate is lower at KOs than at regular ones (including myself (I played roughly 3.5K KO SNGs at good winrate), so I dont think anyone can say I don't know what I'm talking about.
Edited by BeMyATMplz (09 October 2014 @ 12:06 GMT)
Joined: Feb '13
Location: Slovenia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 554
Posted by doubletop777: I dont hate your fold either and i would have probably done the same thing. AQ looks like a pretty hand but if you get called, you are nearly always behind and with your stack, there was time to wait for a better spot
his stack is HUGE so i dont understand what are u talking about
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by yout85:
Posted by BeMyATMplz: it's important to have as many players covered as possible for KO reasons.
People put far too much thought into taking players bounties in these tournies... There were 9 players left, so even if tones took out all of them, he would win an extra $2 in bounties. Which would have been totally insignificant when compared to the rise in cash for each position. Lol, Easy fold IMO, without a second thought.
lol please think logical. What do you think is an average winrate in these? It's about 50% for top regs. One KO more per tourney increases ones ROI by almost 20%. You wanna tell me this isn't worth it?. One KO is worth about 0.3% of the prizepool. Thus, we can make plays that are from ICM perspective -0.3% in nash (which I'd already consider as big ICM mistake) and be breakeven or better. Not to forget the future equity on increasing our stack if we win. You guys all want to differ regulars/turbo/hypers for future play reasons and here you dont even take it into consideration? And then saying "without a second thought", how ridiculously tight do you think his shoving range is here? He should basicly even shove hands like A2s (with the deadmoney of the UTG limper in the pot).
Winrates at KO SNGs are higher than non-KO winrates for a reason. Look up regs that play mostly KO SNGs, I think I haven't seen one whose winrate is lower at KOs than at regular ones (including myself (I played roughly 3.5K KO SNGs at good winrate), so I dont think anyone can say I don't know what I'm talking about.
I am thinking very logically... I would push AQ, again without a second thought, but calling all in is totally different to pushing all in.
Edit... My answers were in regards to a MTT KO tourney, where each bounty is $0.25 and the prizes for final table start at ~$100 up to ~$2,000 for 1st - this is why I was saying KO's are totally irrelevant, and also why I would certainly fold AQ in that situation... as each player knocked out rises your prize by upwards of $100 sometimes.
When you say he should shove hands like A2... Yes, he should. But you should almost never CALL all in with hands like that - certainly not with other players to act after you.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
I would re shove this easy. And limp+KO is reason more to do that. Flating here is for me bad decision because if you have bad players behind they could flat too easily and then you have to hit, and if you have agro players behind they could shove some small pair that they would fold to your shove. Fold is kind of tight there especially with KO bounty and limper in hand.
Joined: Feb '14
Location: Tunisia
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 2135
small stack has a wide range i would shove this against a limber and small stack looking for a double people dont give a credit to aq , it is still a strong hand look it this way , only hands to fear are qq+ or ak , and you are domaniting against any othet A or flipping against a pair , obviously they had much worse i live in mtts thanks to small stacks , they desperate and in need of double
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by yout85:
Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by yout85:
Posted by BeMyATMplz: it's important to have as many players covered as possible for KO reasons.
People put far too much thought into taking players bounties in these tournies... There were 9 players left, so even if tones took out all of them, he would win an extra $2 in bounties. Which would have been totally insignificant when compared to the rise in cash for each position. Lol, Easy fold IMO, without a second thought.
lol please think logical. What do you think is an average winrate in these? It's about 50% for top regs. One KO more per tourney increases ones ROI by almost 20%. You wanna tell me this isn't worth it?. One KO is worth about 0.3% of the prizepool. Thus, we can make plays that are from ICM perspective -0.3% in nash (which I'd already consider as big ICM mistake) and be breakeven or better. Not to forget the future equity on increasing our stack if we win. You guys all want to differ regulars/turbo/hypers for future play reasons and here you dont even take it into consideration? And then saying "without a second thought", how ridiculously tight do you think his shoving range is here? He should basicly even shove hands like A2s (with the deadmoney of the UTG limper in the pot).
Winrates at KO SNGs are higher than non-KO winrates for a reason. Look up regs that play mostly KO SNGs, I think I haven't seen one whose winrate is lower at KOs than at regular ones (including myself (I played roughly 3.5K KO SNGs at good winrate), so I dont think anyone can say I don't know what I'm talking about.
I am thinking very logically... I would push AQ, again without a second thought, but calling all in is totally different to pushing all in.
Edit... My answers were in regards to a MTT KO tourney, where each bounty is $0.25 and the prizes for final table start at ~$100 up to ~$2,000 for 1st - this is why I was saying KO's are totally irrelevant, and also why I would certainly fold AQ in that situation... as each player knocked out rises your prize by upwards of $100 sometimes.
When you say he should shove hands like A2... Yes, he should. But you should almost never CALL all in with hands like that - certainly not with other players to act after you.
This is a $1.50 90 player KO SNG with a $0.27 bounty and $96.30 regular prizepool iirc.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Now I know exactly what tourney it actually was, I have to agree and say I would likely have re-shoved... Though if it was the $1.35 turbo knockout... I would certainly have folded.
Joined: Aug '14
Location: Germany
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 766
It depends on how loose or tight the player that raises is. If he is loose I would go all in. If he is tight the fold is correct especially because an early raise is always a sign for a goog hand and from a tight player even more so.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
The way I see it the range of the UTG+1 is really loose with the limper in there and I don't think anyone disputes that if you were the last to act it would be an instant call. So the question is how much do the big stacks behind you threaten you?
Well tbh I think you should consider how much you are a threat to them. Unless they have double your stack the bounty is nowhere near enough incentive to risk their lead with any two. Although it depends on their table images, I think you shouldn't let them worry you because they will nearly always have position on you.
My move (probably the most stupid nine times out of ten) is to call. Because whilst AK and top pairs instantly call a shove, I don't think they'll go over the top without better. It's a dangerous spot to bluff so you can get away from cold hands. Yeah, they might be tempted to call with the added value but you've got good cards, you're dominating their calling range and if you have to fold the flop you've got a good size stack left.
