Joined: Nov '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 426
One example how i isolate third player,because with 3 players in shove,my midlle pair be weak,so i decide to raise maximum bet to move third player and give myself bigger chance to win hand.Are i am doung this right? Full Tilt Poker Game #35265932417: The Daily Edge - T$ (287862091), Table 12 - NL Hold'em - 30/60 - 21:23:03 CET - 2015/02/13 [15:23:03 ET - 2015/02/13] Seat 1: shefft6822 (2,945) Seat 2: rugl23 (1,350) Seat 3: redrum1981 (1,500), is sitting out Seat 4: iraque78 (2,780) Seat 5: jps91 (3,000) Seat 6: SorStarsi (1,380), is sitting out Seat 7: Bellike1990 (2,740) Seat 9: manpoker f5 (1,065) rugl23 posts the small blind of 30 redrum1981 posts the big blind of 60 The button is in seat #1 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to iraque78 [7d 7c] iraque78 raises to 120 jps91 folds SorStarsi folds Bellike1990 calls 120 DoubleAAinHand sits down DoubleAAinHand is sitting out manpoker f5 has 15 seconds left to act manpoker f5 folds shefft6822 folds rugl23 raises to 1,350, and is all in redrum1981 folds iraque78 raises to 2,580 Bellike1990 folds iraque78 shows [7d 7c] rugl23 shows [8h Qc] Uncalled bet of 1,230 returned to iraque78 *** FLOP *** [2s Kc Tc] (Total Pot: 2,880, 2 Players, 1 All-In) *** TURN *** [2s Kc Tc] (Total Pot: 2,880, 2 Players, 1 All-In) *** RIVER *** [2s Kc Tc 2d] (Total Pot: 2,880, 2 Players, 1 All-In) iraque78 shows two pair, Tens and Sevens rugl23 shows two pair, Tens and Twos iraque78 wins the pot (2,880) with two pair, Tens and Sevens *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2,880 | Rake 0 Board: [2s Kc Tc 2d Ts] Seat 1: shefft6822 (button) didn't bet (folded) Seat 2: rugl23 (small blind) showed [8h Qc] and lost with two pair, Tens and Twos Seat 3: redrum1981 (big blind) folded before the Flop Seat 4: iraque78 showed [7d 7c] and won (2,880) with two pair, Tens and Sevens Seat 5: jps91 didn't bet (folded) Seat 6: SorStarsi didn't bet (folded) Seat 7: Bellike1990 folded before the Flop Seat 9: manpoker f5 didn't bet (folded)
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
You need to fold that hand.. You have 46 big blinds and you're dealt a low-medium pocket pair in the 'UTG' position..
On a 9 seater table, you simply can't play this hand out of position, obviously you may occasionally get lucky, but too often you'll lose your money.. Obviously going all-in removed the positional disadvantage, but with 46bb still remaining, going all-in is also a mistake.
Your initial raise is obviously wrong, set mining is correct with this hand and your stack size, but it's simply (statistically) not profitable from UTG on a full-table..
It's not a terrible play, it's not like you're throwing away money, BUT - it's definitely a losing play, which means, if you continue to min-bet small-medium pocket pair from UTG, then over time you'll lose money.
As-played, your move is definitely still wrong. You're essentially calling an allin with a low pocket pair.
When you shove all-in, you have two ways of winning - either the opponent folds, or they call and you win the hand.. Now, when you call an all-in, you only have ONE way of winning; you need the best hand at the river..
This means, when calling an allin, you need to be good on pot-odds alone in order to make money over time.. When you shove all-in, you can add some 'fold equity' to your pot odds.. this is basically the chance of your opponent folding, multiplied by the pot..
So, for fold equity - if there is $100 in the pot and you think your opponent will fold 50% of the time, well then you've got $50 worth of fold equity + your pot odds / hand equity..
You don't get fold equity here.. and small/medium pocket pairs are TERRIBLE hands to call an all in with, here is why:
If you have a small/medium pocket pair and you go up against two 'over cards', then you're roughly 50% to win.. However, if you face an 'over pair' (a higher pocket pair), then you're roughly 20% chance of winning.
So, since your opponent shoves all in, you have to assign him a range, some of the hands in his range are over-cards and some are over pairs, so you find youer actual chance of winning will be somewhere between 20% and 50% (depending how tight/narrow his range actually is). Regardless of where on the spectrum his hand actually falls, you can see the obvious problem here; you're going to lose the hand more than half the time, for this reason, it's a bad play.
So remember, when you stack gets lower than what it was here (46bb), say - more like 10-20bb and you're looking for an all-in/double situation, just remember this - SHOVING all-in with a small/medium pocket pair is a FANTASTIC move (FE + PE), CALLING the all-in with the same hand is TERRIBLE (PE only) - you're going to lose more than 50% of the time.
FE = Fold Equity PE = Pot Equity
------------ That aside, your isolation bet is correct for what you were trying to achieve.. Unfortunately, as I wrote above - you need to fold that hand straight away and if you do make a small bet/call and then someone shoves allin, then you REALLY need to fold it (especially with 46bb).
That said, if you were holding something like AK/QQ/KK (a strong calling hand for allin) - then the isolation move you made is completely correct..
Just remember - there is a huge difference between the range of hands you can CALL an all-in with, compared to the range you can shove allin with.. HUGE DIFFERENCE. All-in calling range, when you have >10BB, should be extremely tight/narrow!
Edited by jessthehuman (13 February 2015 @ 21:20 GMT)
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Croatia
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 426
Thanks for explaim.I always have problems with midlle and low pairs,especyally in early positions Always think- naaaaaaaah he not catch over card and make raise pot and get in trouble. You say i am not play right with mini raise on utg,supose i must just call.Its big leaks on my game and must work to play proper this hands in all positions and through phases.If anyone have any suggestion how play midlles and lows pairs in differents positions and phases of games...please posting.Thanks!
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Initially easy open 66+ is gonna be +EV. However, vs. most villains you have to fold to the 3bet shove herein IMO, least of the time someone will shove on you as wide here. If you dont want to give up,easy shove
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by pelinimed: You say i am not play right with mini raise on utg,supose i must just call.Its big leaks on my game and must work to play proper this hands in all positions and through phases.If anyone have any suggestion how play midlles and lows pairs in differents positions and phases of games...please posting.Thanks!
Well, BeMyATMplz has a different opinion on the UTG open with 66+. So, I think I mentioned, whilst I believe it is a leak, I don't think it's a big one.. I think it's a really marginal spot.
Personally, I believe it IS a leak for most people, on most tables.. There are exceptions of course.. But generally speaking, I think to be profitable opening with medium PPs UTG, you need to be a very good player and even then, you need a certain kind of table/villain for it to really work.
My advice, is to drop that spot, unless you have a really good reason for playing it (you have a particular read on the table/villain that indicates set-mining is likely to be an easy and profitable spot to play).
If you use a hand-tracking system and in particular if you use an add-on like Leak Buster, they can be really good for identifying spots your losing money in.
For example, you can run a query to show you over 500K hands, how much have you won/lost by opening with 77 UTG. You can check very specific and broad spots.
Sometimes it's a leak where you need to remove that play from your games, other times the leak may be that you need to change the way you play the hand, but not stop playing it altogether.
Great to see someone eager to learn the game anyway, most people just come on and complain about how it's an unfair game, failing to realise just how complex it is and how skilled the competition actually is.
So, massive for you. If you keep actively improving your game, you'll do well in poker. That is all it takes.. You just need to be intelligent enough to understand the subtleties and strategies of the game and humble enough to learn from others and your mistakes.
Funnily enough, most people fair on the latter, there's plenty of smart, losing players out there. That refuse to believe they can improve their game. They know they're smart and they're simply not used to being humble. So instead of admitting they have leaks, they blame the other players, the software - hell, they'll blame Lady Luck. Just so long as they don't have to admit they nee to put more work into their game.
So, good for you. I'm "retired" now (no longer player poker), but I used to be a successful, amateur, low-mid level tournament player.
Joined: Sep '13
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1564
tldr: ur too deep and its too early to call a shove with mid pair. plus there was another player left so you should take that into consideration too. If you were IP and you were one to shove so be it, but you had a mid pair, and another guy to react after you so its a no go.
tldr jr you shouldnt have same range for shoving and calling allins, especially oop
Joined: Aug '14
Location: Germany
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 766
From my point of view it is still OK that you raise with a pair of sevens from very early position, although I would just called and wait what happens after me. But if you are confronted with an all in then you must fold 77.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
I think the open Utg is borderline, it is slightly +EV (surely depends on the table too, but on average it's gonna be profitable open). If in this specific Situation it's Situation it is too,I don't know, I just noticed this is a freeroll so I'd assume it more likely isn't, but regardless I think it's only very tiny either +/- EV
Joined: Jan '13
Location: Philippines
Age: 57 (F)
Posts: 857
just always think of the nuts .u dont have it then fold or u wanna be fish lucky player which are most likely to win most of the time,sometime we hate sometimes we love it....
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Netherlands
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 257
Posted by superthight: just always think of the nuts .u dont have it then fold or u wanna be fish lucky player which are most likely to win most of the time,sometime we hate sometimes we love it....
Joined: Aug '14
Location: Germany
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 766
Posted by BeMyATMplz: I think the open Utg is borderline, it is slightly +EV (surely depends on the table too, but on average it's gonna be profitable open). If in this specific Situation it's Situation it is too,I don't know, I just noticed this is a freeroll so I'd assume it more likely isn't, but regardless I think it's only very tiny either +/- EV
I absolutely agree with you that an open raise with 77 in this position is problematic, especally when you are playing fullring. On a 6 max table this may be the right move, although you would also have to play the hand out of position when you get one or more callers.
(Total Pot: 2,880, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
(Total Pot: 2,880, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
