Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 73
Hey everyone. In my AA thread in the hand history forum, a lot of people seemed to think I should raise more pre flop. I would like to discuss that here.
I like to raise 2.5 or 3 times the BB .. (3 from late position, as you want to put some pressure on the blinds in this case)
plus points of raising smaller pre flop with ALL hands : -you will get action on your big hands instead of just picking up blinds -if you get reraised and have to fold you have risked less -you risk less when trying to steal blinds. -if the blinds call you (because it seems cheap to them), you will most often win the hand because they are out of position, i really dont mind the blinds calling me -you keep pot size small (controlled) just in case you still lose the hand
negatives about raising small pre flop : -you dont build very large pot pre flop, so you win less
look if you have 1500 stack and if you raise 4x and keep betting pot, what can happen : blinds 10-20 you make it 80 with AK you get reraised to 160 you call flop comes AK9 rainbow you bet pot 350 he calls 350 turn 2, still rainbow you bet pot 700 he calls 700 river ... doesnt matter ... no way for you to get away from the hand at the river ... you only have 450 left with 1400 in the pot you go all in he calls and shows you trips
now same situation with smaller bets blinds 10-20 you make it 50 with AK you get reraised to 100 you call flop comes AK9 rainbow you bet HALF pot 110 he calls 100 turn 2, still rainbow you bet pot 220 he pushes all in ... or whatever happens next, you still have most of your stack left and can still get away from the hand if needed !!!!
Your top-pair top kicker will only win so many times in an MTT before you get knocked out by trips. Try to control the pot size and you will last a lot longer in MTTs.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Estonia
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 232
You must raise more preflop to give some value to your good hands. Thats what I think, but if you are a very good winning player then stick with your strategy.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
Well, situations like the one you described happens in poker. Now, if you want to play poker you must start asking yourself why the hell did that guy just call your big pot bet on that flop after he raised your preflop bet. When You ask yourself that question you might get an answer that he might be trapping you with trips, it is not that simple but still. That will keep you in tourney much longer than small betting preflop with strong hands.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
2,5 - 3 BB may be good late in a tourney, when the stacks are shallow. Around 20-30 BB. Early on it is better not to give good odds for your opponents to call you. So 3,5 - 4 BB (+1 BB per limper) should do it.
And if you get real action after the flop with your aces you may not like the result. Average win with AA is around 30 BB. If all the chips go in over three streets, you play either a fish or are beat.
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Agreed, the problem with aces is that they are really hard to fold, so most of the times that end in a show down you'll loose, if you have put any pressure on your opponent. So rather than wanting a lot of action with a big hand like AA I think it is a lot better to raise bigger, and get value on it, plus it makes for a flop worth bluffing on for if the opportunity is out there.
I agree with predobar, he is totally right. raising in late position, 3xBB is not enough with AA or AK, it looks like a steal. you should think about your way of playing. That´s the reason why most people think they lose AA too often, they give the right odds to the blinds. you really gotta learn to lay down nice preflop hands.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 73
play 4-5 handed after a raise ? seriously ... that almost never happens to me. you guys should really TRY raising so small for some time ... unless you are playing 1c/2c or something, then just go all in pre flop with your aces, you will always get a caller who cant lay down his J9 suited.
shokaku : about your reply, what you say is exactly opposite of what is true. read daniel negreanus small ball strategy for tournaments ... as long as you have a LOT of blinds, it is MUCH better to raise small. Once you are down to 20bb or less , you should be looking to re-raise all in with strong hands. Once you have only 10bb you should only push with a hand that you can double up with (not a2, a3 etc)....
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
A-2, A-3 and any A-rag is not strong hand and has flop odds same as AK with difference in strength, personally I would never go allin with A-rag unless I am in danger of being blinded out. If you want to go allin with 20BB stack, your choice but it is not best strategy IMO, especially with loose tables, never read "small ball" theory Doyle mentioned it and thats all I know about it. You will probably steal blinds few times but when someone calls you its bye bye time because you will be severely shortstacked if someone hits or you miss flop, which is not that hard to miss with A-rag. IMO you should still try to win big pots without risking allin if you have 20BB+SB stack, once you are down to at least 12-13BB+SB and on the table with some big stack, you should seek double up through one hand. As I said in previous post, it is not that simple, on some tables it is possible to min bet and get blinds while on others you need to push allin to get them. Some players will try to think/guess what you might have and others are just looking their own cards and , again IMO, it is most valuable in tourney to recognize and adjust your play accordingly to those player types on your table and that will will save you or earn you lots of chips. Not only in tourneys but on cash tables too.
2.5xBB up to 5xBB are the perfect preflop sizing raises for every big hands you wanna play but when blinds are very high a 2xBB raise is sometimes enough as your opponents will often reraise you.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
Posted by acehighness: shokaku : about your reply, what you say is exactly opposite of what is true. read daniel negreanus small ball strategy for tournaments ... as long as you have a LOT of blinds, it is MUCH better to raise small. Once you are down to 20bb or less , you should be looking to re-raise all in with strong hands. Once you have only 10bb you should only push with a hand that you can double up with (not a2, a3 etc)....
Daniel N.s tourney success in recent years speaks for itself. You can play that way, when you open a lot of pots and don't want to raise to high with your usual 74o type of hands. And if you think you have a huge edge about your opponent after the flop. If not: raise bigger.
And how do you reraise all-in when you open the pot?
