Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1086
This is a little bit of a grey area for me and definitly something i need to work on in ring games.
Is there two different ways at looking at it?
I mean, i understand the concept of working out what you think you're opponent will call if you have the nuts but, I'm not so sure about betting for value with trips (holding pp) when the board is flushing or straightening.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Hmm, hard one, i always think of a value bet as a bet when i know I have the best hand, the nuts or very close to that i dont think they will beat me. Value with trips id say no when board is like that bt could go for the "thin valeu bet" depending on varients lol. Not much help i guess Do you normally bet in this situation
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
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If you make a value bet, you want a call, cause you think you are ahead. So with the stone cold nuts it is only the question how much to bet.
On those straighty flushy boards it may be best to bet/fold. So making a bet that can be called by top pair or two pair. But if you get raised, dump your set (if the opponent is not a complete bluff monkey)
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
The question you should ask yourself is: How much money is my opponent willing to pay me with the second best hand? But always take what has happend in to account, like if he calls the turn what is he likely to be calling with, drawing a str8, flush or will he play on with top pair, 2 pair, etc I think the true factor for the vale bet is the opponint. Dont forget position aswell.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1086
Yeah I'm finding playing out of position you tend to occasionally get flat called all the way river regardless of your betting at which point you have no idea where you are. Obviously your opponent has a lot to do with you decision, but when all the cards are out you have no idea what the calling station is holding and it's whether to fire your last bullet and get re-raised or check and call their bet... laying down trips is hard and not something I feel i can lay down, if I'm beat then they prob sucked out or had me all the way... and if that's the case I want to see their cards to get some info. Can you justify losing a buy in to trips? hmmm
I suppose there's no right way to think about it as every hand and situation is circumstantial.
Joined: Dec '07
Location: Denmark
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@JoeJeavons
You valuebet when you think opponent is willing to call with something worse than your holding even on drawy boards. This is entirely individual and based on your read on opponent of how light he calls.
When opponents call you light post IP it's called floating. They do this because often when people lead OOP in raised pots they are weak cause if they were strong why wouldnt they let opponent cbet and get more out the pot? It's often mid pairs and weak pocket pair who wants to take the pot if you didn't hit or fold if you show strength. Because of this weak holdings or players with less "balls" will call the lead to attack on later streets when the leader shows weakness since it's hard to 2-3 barrel weak holdings OOP and they thereby make a so called float, the french players love this who's got the biggest balls poker. I think that I raise 2/3 leads in HU pots when im the initial raiser even just with high card no draw because the lead often is so weak that it's more of a question "did you hit or have a strong pocket pair?" so I insta give the right answer to their question and take the pot. Rarely it's a set that in purpose leads to make sure you don't check behind if the board should be draw heavy but also to induce a raise from TP/over pair or just from an aggressive players like me.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 86
I've used value bets as a type of bluff - where i've won a couple of big pots and used value bets of a similar size I often find that betting a similar amount will make people believe you have the nuts again.
As oppossed to over betting which much of the time is used when people have second best hands or ones that are likely to be outdrawn on the river and turn it also means risking less chips. Obviously not effective against more than one, or sometimes two people.
It's won me many a pot on occasions where I was up against the sort of player who would have treated a large bet as something worth 'chasing' and a lower bet as a sign of weakness.
So in other words the 'amount' of a 'value bet' isn't just about what you think your hand is worth compared to theirs, and how they play. It's about Your past history at the table (usually fairly recent as image changes quite quickly on some tables) and betting habbits as well. The more unpredictable(or deceptive) your history at that time, the more leaway you have with value betting.
Acting like a fish in smaller pots can often set you up for going all in on some pots and getting called , where other times if you're playing tight, a big raise is going to be too obvious.
So, be aware of your playing style, at that time (your image), on that table.
May be an incorrect stratedgy but it's worked for me.
Edited by ChitStripper (21 January 2009 @ 17:48 GMT)
I think it would be better to discuss it using some example. As for me value bet is the bet with size=1/2 pot or less. And you can make it in different situations. You can also trap an opponent making value bets but betting too little you can also be trapped. So the opponent could call the big bet even if youhave nuts but it wouldn't be called value bet if it is higher than 1/2 pot. IMHO.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 86
Personally on trips I never play around if the pot is already a decent size - too many times i've been caught by someone hitting a straight or flush draw on the River. hit trips, bet big is my favoured choice though obviously on smaller pots you're going to want to build it. Just watch out for large bets on the RIver!
