Joined: Jan '08
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1354
i love info like that... i personally dont think that the sites are "rigged" to but definatly i think they are made for action so they get more rake... ive come across many reasons to believe that but in any case its still really fun to play.. and what stats tracker did u use for that info
Joined: Oct '07
Location: Sweden
Age: 63 (M)
Posts: 210
I personally don't believe the sites are rigged. I mean come on why would the site risk to lose millions of dollars just to make you loose your $100 dollars or something like that. Maybe everyone feels the sites are rigged beacuse: 1. You play much more hands online (like 100+ / h) 2. It's easier to blame someone else than look at what your doing wrong and try to correct it. 3. If you play online it's easier to loose your concentration. Like watching TV besides or reading your mail but when you play live the game has your full attention... Just a few thoughts...
on stars i gett the idea they have some river deal with the one who is on the loosing hand, rigged i dont know but the fact top players stopt playing at stars says enough.......
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
Ok despite this is copy pasted, this stats dont prove anything. They prove how much A-A you get, so what. How many times have you won with those Aces? How many times you get drawn into hand with strong pockets, to find out that someone has nuts with crap cards? How many times does pair versus other pair, not A-A and not same pairs, and at what stages of play, specially in SnG tourneys. How many times you get High pair with rainbow on the flop, to turn where theres either straight or flush draw and finishing with a boat on the river. This is how the game is being rigged. Sit at the table and if there are not to many rake collected watch the hole cards and community cards develop the big pot. They earn money on rake it doesnt metter what the hand is as long the pot is rising. I have written so many poker programs in my life begining with C64, that i would really want to see what is a "Industrial Random Number Generator". Even if they do use some thermal sensors as they say they do, that value is only base which can be manipulated in so many ways that if i wasnt so fond of playing poker i would quit playing long time ago, and if gamblers at casinos here werent armed. I would want to see some fool like me to go there and take that guys money in pokergame.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 61 (M)
Posts: 4
Posted by Administrator: Thanks for the heads-up SavagePenguin. I will contact nieminen15 and find out what's going on.
Hi, I'm Four Dogs, the real author of the above post. Don't worry about it. No harm done.
Predobar, there is alot more to this subject than just the one initial post. We have collected close to 1 million hands from various poker sites and merely used the AA example to test the accuracy of RNG at those sites. The original thread has close to 200 posts and many of your arguments have been thoroughly fleshed out. Out of respect for this site and the administrator I will not post any links.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 407
Their are some sites that I just wouldnt trust, but I dont think that the top couple sites are rigged at all. If you watch any of the WPT or WSOP events on tv there are some very bad beats all the time on there.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
I just woke up so sorry if this post sound rude, it is not ment to be. I dont like cheaters in reeal games and on internet. I usually dont lose at card games in which im good at if i am not cheated, i am that good. But another reason why i dont play live games because on one occasion it has been demonstrated to me how easily cards can be dealt in the way dealer wants them. I dont know how he did it but he did it. Sleeves up and im looking at the hands and i am warned that it would happen and yet i havent noticed a thing. My dream job is a game tester and i do it for fun, i even done it with online casinos, that is how i got knowledge on their tracking techniques, and it is not likely to happen that you end up with same amount of money wagered or same amount of money gained through free spins in 5 accounts. I have never took their money it was not my intention. On one occasion they did noticed too many players from same geo location using free offer and they got suspicious and guess what, I hit a Jackpot on 10th free spin. havent even tried to withdraw that money considering it is a bogus account and they probably had whole department sniffing my connection. Same thing with poker rooms i sometimes play just to put theory to test, ofcourse trying not to lose entire bankroll. I dont have the will to hack into some poker rooms servers and i dont even have the practical knowledge how to do it but i do read books on those suibject and try to catch up if i have the time with these things. I am honest guy, i dont cheat and i dont want to be cheated. In live games i sometimes deliberately play games, for drinks only, in which i know i will get cheated by colluding players and in 75% of the times my so called partner, must do something which is not allowed to make other players win the game. That is how good I am. I use these games as a honesty test among those kind of people. My father was a part time gambler, grandfather too and they didnt live long enough to tell me about grandgrandfather. So you can say im geneticaly destined to do this.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 61 (M)
Posts: 4
Posted by Administrator: Thanks for stopping by FourDogs - just let me know if you feel the thread should be locked/removed, as you're the real author of the #1 post here
No no, leave it up. I hope it gets you some traffic.
Predobar, I don't think you get the drift of this thread. It's not a typical rigged thread. The intent is merely to test through empirical evidence one (just one) of the many rigged theories floating about. I chose AA because it was sexy, but the validity of a RNG or shuffler could have been tested equally well with any 2 card combination. As of yesterday, we had collected 525477 hands from PokerStars alone and been AA 2396 times. 2377 was expected. This is a deviation of only.76% from mathematical expectation. I'd say they have a fairly random shuffle.
Now if you want to believe that they manipulate the hand after the flop then be my guest, but if the shuffle is truly random, then this is a near impossible task.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
Yeah sorry i missed the point. First time I was on tilt and second time i woke up. . My apologies for that. But i would be more than glad to demonstrate how it is possible to rigg the hand and keep those odds on hole cards in mathematical boundaries. You can do it yourself if you want to because i see you have at least good mathematical knowledge, i dont i have logic on my side. There is a say that goes something like "Nothing is impossible if you know what your goal is", something like that. I guess you have some knowledge of programming, because your into math, and you know basics of RNG. Start at the goal and do some "reverse engineering". Sorry again but i got wrong feeling while my mind was boiling, that this is a rigged thread and not simple A-A odds, headline confused me.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 61 (M)
Posts: 4
Posted by Predobar: But i would be more than glad to demonstrate how it is possible to rigg the hand and keep those odds on hole cards in mathematical boundaries.
This would be VERY interesting. When can we expect to see that?
Posted by Predobar: There is a say that goes something like "Nothing is impossible if you know what your goal is", something like that.
OK, I get it. Anything that is POSSIBLE becomes instantly PROBABLE if that's what you want to believe. There are literally 1000's of poker sites out there. Some of them are likely to be less than honest or competent. But the vast majority of us play at maybe a dozen sites, PokerStars, FullTilt, maybe Ladbrokes if your Eurpean. I have read these RIGGED threads and posts ad nauseum and have yet to read anything more than a bad beat story. You cannot look at your own 20,000-100,000 hands and think you can read anything into them other than variance. I highly doubt many of the true RIGGED believers have even bothered to do that.
I've taken one small rigged thoery and put it to the test. To this point things look pretty kosher, but I have no dillusions of EVER convincing the conspiracy theorist of anything that goes against what they have set their minds to believe. These goldfish will will hang onto any notion , nomatter how fantastic, that supports whatever it is that they THINK they've observed, proof be damned. And when that gets disproved they'll just move on to another one 'till that too gets disproved. And as there is no limit to the human imagination, those of us who are armed only with logic and data are ill equipped to compete.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1170
i really dont think that these sites are rigged but set so all get a fair shot at winning ive won and lost with aces and also won with dodgy hands i shouldnt have played to but when were winning we dont moan so why moan when we lose its just the nature of humans i suppose
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Finland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 120
It would be great to have a HUGE public database of all hands dealt to all players. And what are the other players cards in those hands, what is the flop, what is the river card. How many times is hand XX against hand YY or ZZ etc... Then you could compare poker sites, and really could see IF someone is rigged.
. My apologies for that. But i would be more than glad to demonstrate how it is possible to rigg the hand and keep those odds on hole cards in mathematical boundaries. You can do it yourself if you want to because i see you have at least good mathematical knowledge, i dont i have logic on my side. There is a say that goes something like "Nothing is impossible if you know what your goal is", something like that. I guess you have some knowledge of programming, because your into math, and you know basics of RNG. Start at the goal and do some "reverse engineering". Sorry again but i got wrong feeling while my mind was boiling, that this is a rigged thread and not simple A-A odds, headline confused me.
