Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 3871
you have to know odds to understand if it is convenient call or fold. in this example after the flop you know 5 cards: 3 on the board and two in your hands; (52-5)= 48 cards remaining. only 9 cards of these 48 are useful to complete your flush and other 3 (the three kings) will give you a top pair. So you have 12 cards that probally give you a winning hand. 48:12=4:1 Now you know which bet is convenient to call: if the pot is 400 you can call a bet <=100 (4:1); if your opponent bet more you have to fold. This is how i normally play, but you have to consider also opponent imagine, your position.......
If I get 3-1 to get the nut flush I'll call, in the long run you'll hit the flush enough times to make a profit out of it. If I didn't get the nut flush but just a Q or T high flush I usually call if the odds are 4-1. Offcourse if you got flush draw and open ended straight draw I will only need 1,5-1 to call.
Joined: Dec '08
Location: Germany
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1
Posted by magatt966: you have to know odds to understand if it is convenient call or fold. in this example after the flop you know 5 cards: 3 on the board and two in your hands; (52-5)= 48 cards remaining. only 9 cards of these 48 are useful to complete your flush and other 3 (the three kings) will give you a top pair. So you have 12 cards that probally give you a winning hand. 48:12=4:1 Now you know which bet is convenient to call: if the pot is 400 you can call a bet <=100 (4:1); if your opponent bet more you have to fold. This is how i normally play, but you have to consider also opponent imagine, your position.......
Eeehm, you didnt really get it. With 12 Outs: 52-5 = 47. --> 47 - 12 = 35. --> 35:12 = 3:1 Pot Odds. So if he goes All-in you cann call it, because you get 1:1 Pot Odds on 2 cards (Turn/River). You better learn something about Odds, Outs and Equity before teaching wrong concepts.
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 3871
Posted by fLuppster:
Posted by magatt966: you have to know odds to understand if it is convenient call or fold. in this example after the flop you know 5 cards: 3 on the board and two in your hands; (52-5)= 48 cards remaining. only 9 cards of these 48 are useful to complete your flush and other 3 (the three kings) will give you a top pair. So you have 12 cards that probally give you a winning hand. 48:12=4:1 Now you know which bet is convenient to call: if the pot is 400 you can call a bet <=100 (4:1); if your opponent bet more you have to fold. This is how i normally play, but you have to consider also opponent imagine, your position.......
Eeehm, you didnt really get it. With 12 Outs: 52-5 = 47. --> 47 - 12 = 35. --> 35:12 = 3:1 Pot Odds. So if he goes All-in you cann call it, because you get 1:1 Pot Odds on 2 cards (Turn/River). You better learn something about Odds, Outs and Equity before teaching wrong concepts.
ty for your claryfing response my maths teacher died young (52-5=48 )
My intention wasn't to give lessons to anyone but to share the way i play this hand (the original question was "how do you play hand like this?" ) i just played in a wrong way ... or at least tighter than best way
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
I'd consider a raise all in depending on the size of bet and chip stacks especially if it was in a tournament. because although your behind you have two cards to come and many outs. if you call a large raise and miss the turn you may have to call another large bet to see the river, which gives you very bad odds with only one chance to hit. if you're all in before you have better pot odds. he may also fold allowing you to take the pot there and then but either way you shift the difficult call to him.
if he's already raised all in however thats a different matter. then you have to calculate the odds as magatt said. don't know if you can count the kings as outs becuase he might have had two pair or set or hit two pair on the river. you're ideally looking for a card of the same suit.
------------ I'd also add if the bet isn't big enough to justify an all in, you should still consider a raise. If he flat calls your re-raise he's less likely to bet on the turn even if it's a blank and your flush draw is better hidden. if he re-raises before the turn you could then go all in but you'd have to bet the right amount to stop him going all in first.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 342
Weather to call, bet, or fold with a flush draw is a complicated science.
Factors to consider are as follows:
1, Immediate pot odds - as a very rough guide I like at least 3-1 odds on both the flop and turn to make a call but these can change radically depending on the other factors below.
2, Implied odds. These are determined by your stack sizes, your opponent and your opponents hand. If you put your opponent on a good hand ( and he won't fold it ) or if he is a week fishy player that will pay you off when you hit. Then you can reduce the immediate pot odds that is required to call providing he has a nice big stack for you to win when you do hit.
3, Position. If you have position on him then it's easier to extract chips from him when you hit and you are more likely to see a free river card if you miss on the turn. As such you can reduce the pot odds needed to call on the flop. Also if you can close the action be more inclined to make the call, if there are players behind you still to act then you could end up paying too much for your draw if one of them re-raises.
4, How good is your opponent and what's his style ( covered a little in point 2 ) Good opponents won't pay you off and will make you pay enough on both the flop and turn that calling with a draw will not be profitable. Also if your opponent aggressive and likes to bet big then you're often better folding ( even if he is a bad player ) unless there are multiple opponents in the hand and as such your pot odds and implied odds improve because of this.
5, How good is your draw and do you have over cards that may be good. If your draw is to the nuts be more likely to call if you have a inside straight draw as well be more likely to call and if you have 1 or 2 over cards to the board be more inclined to make the call too.
6, Is it a tournament or a cash game. I'm always more likely to call in a cash game where I can just rebuy/top up my stack than in a torney where I can't. Often later in torneys where stacks are short you just can't afford to go making speculative calls even with decent odds.
7,Rather than check - calling with your draws you should consider betting out, check - raising or even a bet - 3 bet line. If you can win the pot without hitting so much the better. Before taking this approach you need to access how likely you opponent is to fold, some week players can never fold or if you suspect he has a big hand that he won't fold then just stick to check - calling or check - folding.
8, With big draws - ( ie open ended straight flush draws or a flush draw with an inside straight draw and 2 overs ) I like to play them really strong on the flop and get as much money in as possible - you are most likely a favorite to win by the river with these monster draws. On the turn though I'm more likely to play them passively and just call as you equity in the hand has halved. However a big check raise on the turn looks so strong that your opponent will often fold anything smaller than top 2 pair.
9, Position ( again - you know it's important ) be more likely to bet out or check - raise your draws when out of position. You're happier to see them fold when your out of position and by betting out you can often "set the price yourself" to see the next card rather than leaving him to bet pot and pricing you out. Be more inclined to check ( and see a free card ) or just call when your in position. You don't want to get re raised big forcing you to fold your draw.
10, If the board is paired then just fold unless the pot odds are really good - you could be drawing dead to a full house already.
I think that most of what I know about playing draws and I don't know much on the matter, but I hope it is of some help to someone.
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Well, I think, unless he puts you all in, you can't really count the odds like that, you take both the turn and the river into account, but odds are if you don't hit on the turn it will cost you more to see the river, which should be factored in as well.
dont just consider pot odds, consider implied odds
more useful in a cash game, if you think someone is likely to pay you off and its slightly out of your "odds to call" range, sometimes i would call anyway, or even throw in a raise to disguise the flush draw
flush draws are less useful in tornaments this way but they are good to shove with when blinds get nasty
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Finland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 120
Really can't give straight answer to this... sometimes it's right move to call, sometimes it's fold. Depends on amount of raise and player who raises (and other players still on the hand).
