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Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Well, not many players would fold the nuts, doesn't make it genius to do so. Any fish could have made a play like this, all it takes is deep pockets. Yes Howard had a hard time calling it, but he did, and Dwan obviously didnt want a call, the only reason to make a 5 bet is to try to push your opponent off his hand, unless of course Dwan thaught 86 was good, which he failed to do, if all he wanted was to be paid off by a big pair, it makes no sense at all to keep pushing that far. Yes HL plays it very obvious, but Dwan apparently cant tell it excactly untill the at the very least the turn or he would have bet the flop. I won't argue that Dwan can make some great plays, I just don't think this was one of them.
And come on, Dwan doesn't have to make a play like this to get his big hands paid off, everyone knows his style. This was an attempt on the pot pre flop and nothing else, while that failed Dwan lucked out. The only reason for any of his later bets would be to steal the pot, which failed.
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Not necessarily, people often confuse good play and tight play, it is very possible to play great while still playing loose. But it does rely on luck, as someone said before, Durrr's play realy's on him getting paid off big when he hits agaisnt big hands and loosing less when he doesn't. In other words when he is running good he runs very good and when he isn't he suffers more.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Ireland
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 399
I know the difference thanks. I've watched him play enough to know he gets away with some really dodgy plays, yet no matter how he plays it someone will always say he played it great. Some donk at your table in a big mtt played that hand like that and you'd not be so impressed huh?
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Can't really compare an online tournament with a live ring game, I don't think Dwan would have made this play without seeing Howard squirm the way he did, but still, I don't think this was a genius play, I even think it was sub par, but Dwan has really mastered shoving people around, I'll give him that, he is far from my favorite player in any regard, but he is not that bad. But in the earlier episodes of this season HSP he manages his plays, which this time he failed, and if not for Howard obviously not being familiar with Dwan and playing this supprisingly bad himself, he would have wasted a lot of money on this play.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 342
For me watching Durrrr is fantastic but the one thing I love more is seeing peoples reaction to the way he plays, whether there at the table or just watching.
Like this particular play or not, Durrrr's not where he is though luck - you can't play every day and turn a profit ( long term ) on luck alone.
Playing junk and the nuts the same way is part of this game.
Joined: Apr '08
Location: Sweden
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 188
Yes, I agree, but Durrr's play works when he has luck on his side, just as you have said when his small hands hit. And then he makes a lot more than when he doesn't hit it, but he will also pay off a lot of other people when they hit. His game has very big up and down swings, that doesn't make it bad play, just a fact. And his score card will agree with that.
Joined: Dec '07
Location: Denmark
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 2644
Posted by Dellbo99: I did think they're be some split decisions on this one.
I think it's genius - I can't name a single player that would have done it and Durrr's out on his own with these type of plays.
He can make these type of plays profitable for many reasons:
He has good fold equity ( HL does not have to have AK suited )
He can suck out and get paid by a big pair
However you see it HSP really needs this type of action. Thank heavens that Durrrr's here to bring it.
Can you please put up a 4bet range from a nit out of position....ROFL good FE
Only Dwan is deep so you can't justify his play with this as he can't get paid off as you say.
It's good for the meta-game as you say he will be payed off when he has big hands like Gus does I agree in this. I also like the fact you mention that Dwan brings action to the table which is very entertaining to watch and he is no doubt a brilliant pokerplayer but I didn't like this play.
Well lets put it this way.. Hes ground his way up from freerolls to the highest levels of the game.. Playing at limits we can only watch in amazement at.
You dont get that high in the stakes without knowing what you are doing.
Durrrr may make irrational plays. He may look like a donkey. But I can promise you. He can play poker as well as anyone on the circuit. Hes just adds a dimension to his game that no one else can figure out how to beat.. But take that side of his game away, and you'd stil have a player that could knock the spots off any one of us at any limit we'd choose to play at.
Those that think hes just lucky and he got where he is on lucky suck outs is deluded and if I may suggest, a trifle jealous that they arent able to do the same.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Not the best he has ever played by far. In fact I've never seen him play a hand worse. I can't understand why they check it down. Durr won this by pure luck but neither of them played the hand well. it was entertaining though.
I believe durr did this for the attention. he wants to be famous for these stupid stunts. he wants idiots to call him genius for playing like a retard. he wanted to show the other players at the table what junk he calls with. they will only fear him more for this retard hand. this is why durr is a genius.
Posted by Whiskerer: Well to some degree yes, but then again pretty much all the pros are geniuses. But I really dont think that this play was very genius of him.
No I dont say it was necessarily genius of him. There was an element of luck involved.
But how many players would 5 bet against Howard Lederer.. He must have had one hell of a good read on him to know he didnt have any pocket pair. he was prepared to put his chips into the middle and hope to hit, which OK isnt genius to do, but to know you stand a chance against someone like Lederer betting the way he was, takes some doing..
I dont say he played the hand like a genius, but he sure as hell played his hand better than Lederer played his AK because that was simply quite awful play by Lederer and playing AK that badly he deserved to lose
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 342
Posted by M3turbo: Can you please put up a 4bet range from a nit out of position....ROFL good FE
Only Dwan is deep so you can't justify his play with this as he can't get paid off as you say.
It's good for the meta-game as you say he will be payed off when he has big hands like Gus does I agree in this. I also like the fact you mention that Dwan brings action to the table which is very entertaining to watch and he is no doubt a brilliant pokerplayer but I didn't like this play.
My 4-betting range for HL against Durrrr would be AQ+ ( maybe even AJ ) or TT+ ( maybe even 99 ) + the occasional bluff. I don't think it would be this wide against other players but against Durrrr I think it would be. HL is a nitt but he knows what Durrrr's like and with all these hands he knows he's probably ahead and being out of position he'd be happy to take the pot there and then.
Howard doesn't look happy about calling Durrrr's 5-bet even with AK suited so I think there's every chance he'll fold everything weaker than JJ+ and AK - If these assumptions are correct ( It's a big if ) then HL may fold up to 40% of the time.
For the size of the raise Durrrr put in that's pretty good fold equity.
I agree Howards stack does not in itself give Durrrr the correct odds to call/raise and try to hit a monster flop - but it is a factor that together with all the other reasons helps Durrrr to make this a profitable play.
FWIW I do understand why you and others don't like this play.
As a hand on it's own and in different circumstances I'm sure it would be -ev but in this spot I think Durrrr could probably make it a marginal +ev play. If he didn't think it was then I don't believe he would have done it.
Durrrr got extremely lucky, that's all. In my opinion he risked a lot playing that hand the way he did it. It's pure gambling, nothing else. Besides Lederer played it very badly. He should shove in the first place. Durrrr would probably call anyway because he's crazy... and extremely lucky. That's all.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 58
to me it just showes you that guys like lederer cant survive in todays aggresive holdem game. I've seen a interview of samy farha maybe the sickest player on earth sayin that the holdem games are way to aggresive for him. so if samy says it then you know the game must be getting crazy.
