Joined: May '09
Location: Denmark
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 191
Hey everyone
So I am sitting with QQ in big blind. (blinds are 100/200 + 225 antes).
I have a stack of 5000 with the average stack being 6300.
One guy limps in, another raises up to 800 and a third guy moves all-in with his stack of only 1100 chips. I don't hesitate to move all-in. The initial raiser calls me with AK (having more than 17000 chips).
On the flop comes an ace and I go out.
Normally I may not be asking myself this, but was the all-in move really the best thing I could have done?
Afterall just calling the 1100 might could have helped me survive a little longer still leaving me with around 3800 (a double-up and I would be on average).
If anyone consider themself tournament specialists what would be the proper play here?
If I was low I wouldn't be asking myself this question and if my queens had won I probably wouldn't either. But this is kind of classical situation and since i feel better than average I can't help asking myself whether this really is a correct move? I know just by calling I might not get doubled up, but I would still pick up a quite nice pot lets say the ace hadn't come on the flop. In that case the player with AK had to fold or at least make a wrong call.
Joined: Nov '07
Location: Belgium
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1289
Not saying I am a tournmanent specialst.. but i do play em alot.
Its the Correct play
Squeezeplay and try to isolate HU in this situation, since average was more then U had, U had a premium hand to go with. but more important so much value in the pot for u U were unlucky and it was the best play U can do since u can pick up some dead money also. It's classic to gain up against AK.
Just calling the allin move is dumb if the guy before U goes allin. => if u flatcalled that U will be forced to go all In 9/10 by the CL Since the guy with AK will probably PUSH u in before the flop as well. => chipleader and chance to knock out a few players.
Range of the SS can be wide. small pairs to K-10 or whatever , even Ax. I bet U had the best hand preflop but got outplayed postflop.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
For me calling is no option here. With your stacksize you can't afford to sacrifice 1100 in chips. So it is push or fold. As we have less than average chips, this is a push for me.
Joined: Nov '08
Location: United States
Age: 58 (M)
Posts: 155
Yes, as already posted, you made the proper play.
There is one thing people are missing though. Was this live or online?
Anyway, you should not be able to raise the 1100 allin, as that is an incomplete raise. You can either fold or call 1100, nothing else. Same for big stack, original 800 raiser. They can fold or call the additional 300, nothing else.
If you think I'm crazy, I'm not, this is a real WSOP tourney rule. Original raise is to 800, 1100 goes allin, thus they only raise 300, which is an incomplete raise. Complete raise would need to be 1600(WSOP rule), or 1400(most online sites use this rule, which I disagree with, but hey...). Any incomplete raise, cannot be reraised.
Once the flop hits, betting can occur again. I don't think online sites implement this rule, but have seen it occur many times live.
Like allready said, you had the 60/40 odds on your side, allin was probably right there. Only situation I could imagin where you would fold would be at the end of a tournament like DoN or Satelite for Tickets.
Its a tough one. Its tourney life vs Good crack at winning the beeyatch imho. Little more than a coinflip, there's arguments layin it down to a raise + re-raise, its obvious u were gonna be up against some sort of premium holding. I may have waited for a better spot.........but layin them down wouldna been easy. One thing imo its def not a call. Either pushing or patience........ Unlucky tho.
Joined: Aug '09
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 176
Posted by mattel: Its a tough one. Its tourney life vs Good crack at winning the beeyatch imho. Little more than a coinflip, there's arguments layin it down to a raise + re-raise, its obvious u were gonna be up against some sort of premium holding. I may have waited for a better spot.........but layin them down wouldna been easy. One thing imo its def not a call. Either pushing or patience........ Unlucky tho.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Sweden
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 97
I think, unless you are deep in the tournament, that if you suspect you will have to go all in with QQ or AK you should fold because most of the times i's an all in preflop someone got AA or KK.
But in the end it almost all depend on the opponent.Was he loose aggressive or tight or what kind of player was he?
Well, I would instantly fold QQ if early positions players raise and a reraise when we are 1, 2 or 3 players to be KO for the $$$. IF I HAD a little bit below the average of course, if not I would need to see at least a flop, no all in preflop.
I am going to go against the grain here and say shoving all in with QQ was a bad move.
You have 5000 chips with blinds at 200/100. Allowing for antes ( I am assuming you were playing 10 man tables ) means you were paying 550 per circle of the table. Obviously not allowing for blind increases that means you had 9 more cycles or if you want it another way 50 more hands. No matter what happens you should be able to at least get one decent hand in 50 hands where you could possibly gain a double up. At worst case scenario you can shove from late position with any two cards and hope to steal the blinds and antes.
Where the all in shove falls down is the fact that you had one player raise, and another go all in. In all probablility you were gonna get action from two players. QQ against two other players is not a wise move to make. You are open to at least one having KK or AA which is highly probable or you are going in basically relying on them missing the flop, turn and river completely. If one has AK and the other has JJ for example you are drawiing very thin if a J, K or A hit on the river. THats 8 cards out of hte pack, or 1/4 of the cards available.. The likelihood is actually that at least one of them will hit on the board...
Me personally, I would have called the re-raised all in for 1100 and seen the flop. If you have an overpair to the board then you can fairly safely push after the flop. Its highly unlikely anyone with AA or KK would not have re-raised you all in pre flop. As it turned out an ace hit the board. had you not committed your entire stack pre flop you could have laid down QQ. Ok you'd lost 20% of your stack, but you would still be alive.
The problem with committting all in pre flop when you are not short stacked ( forget the average stack, look at how many more hands you can play ) is that you dont have any way of getting out of it once you have put the chips over the line. You are in teh lap of the gods. Thats not something you really should be doing. If you put all your chips in the middle it should be because you have a hand you are 99.9999% sure will win, or you have so few chips even betting would commit you to the pot.
So in short, you pushed all in when in fact you had no real reason to. Yes its so tempting to hope for that big double up, but when two players have raised before you, the chances are you are going to be going in ahead, but coming out behind.
Patience here would have more than likely saved you, and with hands like QQ if two players are shoving in large amounts of chips before you, then theres only one recommended thing to do, and thats get the hell out the way and let them fight it out then go back later and try again when the odds are more in your favour.
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Posted by fejset: if i get q q i always go all in if somebody rais..
Joined: Nov '07
Location: Belgium
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1289
[Me personally, I would have called the re-raised all in for 1100 and seen the flop. If you have an overpair to the board then you can fairly safely push after the flop.] :>>> THIS
I bet the Bigstack would have pushed the QQ flat call to go allin Then wut? fold preflop? and throw away 1.1K chips?
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Posted by Calmplay: Well, I would instantly fold QQ if early positions players raise and a reraise when we are 1, 2 or 3 players to be KO for the $$$. IF I HAD a little bit below the average of course, if not I would need to see at least a flop, no all in preflop.
