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DoN - KK  0   
I was playing DoN and I was a bit above avarage stack, means 2200 (avg was 1700) there were 8 players and 5 of them will get win. Is it possible that folding Kings is +EV in this situation

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I should also add the information that I made the call and stood against two players. One had KK, the otherone had JJ. Flop was Jxx rainbow Smile

Edited by PietroMC (17 September 2009 @ 22:43 GMT)


     
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Postion? Original Raiser, was it a raise, reraise shove?

More info plz

Liv ftw Heart

     
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Posted by PietroMC:
I was playing DoN and I was a bit above avarage stack, means 2200 (avg was 1700) there were 8 players and 5 of them will get win. Is it possible that folding Kings is +EV in this situation

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I should also add the information that I made the call and stood against two players. One had KK, the otherone had JJ. Flop was Jxx rainbow Smile


Blinds? What were your position between the 8 players.?

Anyway it seems to me EV+ to move all-in preflop, unlees there were 3 players too shortstack
It would be much better if you paste here all the hand.

     
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ICM calcuation is funny when it comes to DoN, although more so on the bubble, with 8 players, all-in vs 2 opponents, it's probably way to go in your position (chip stack). However, that same hand when it's down to 6 players it can def be EV+ to fold. It's all about chip equity. Have to remember, in a DoN you aren't playing to win, only to get in the money. Since getting to 5th is same as first. It does funny things to ICM (chip equity) and it's worth noting that moves that would generally be EV+ trying to double up your stack (or triple up) in a normal STT or MTT may actually be EV- in a DoN because there's no value to a massive stack because coming first is not a priority. Just want to survive.

I've found, to do well at DoN, it's best to multi-table so it is less boring and you do better. But KK is always a tough lay down, with 8 players and 2 callers I'd prob push. With 6 players and 2 callers I'd prob fold since there's a good chance games about to be over..

     
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It is rarely a mistake to fold preflop in a DoN. But to judge this hand we would need more info. Blindsize? All-in preflop?

     
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DON, or not, not folding ppK, is EV+. Even ICM, covers that. ICM is that and a bag of chips, lol..

     
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Posted by klopmand:
DON, or not, not folding ppK, is EV+. Even ICM, covers that. ICM is that and a bag of chips, lol..


U obviously never played a DoN right?

     
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Blinds were 75/150, utg was original raiser, he raises 450 and has stack about 2300+450. I had 2200 and it was folded to me at cutoff. I had about 2200 in chips. I push and dealer(1000 in chips) instantly call with KK, blind fold and original raiser call with JJ. I thought that UTG has to fold anything but AA, but it was wrong judgement.

     
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What stakes were you playing? At the $5 DON's I mostly play i've seen people push with KQs. I've found there's a 'change point' when the blinds hit this level and people can do all sort's of strange things.
"I thought that UTG has to fold anything but AA, but it was wrong judgement. ".... has to fold?...how many of these have you played Pietro?...as I said before some people will raise/push with anything from medium pairs or even Axs in my experience - sit back and let them get on with it when there's still 8 left.

     
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Posted by PietroMC:
Blinds were 75/150, utg was original raiser, he raises 450 and has stack about 2300+450. I had 2200 and it was folded to me at cutoff. I had about 2200 in chips. I push and dealer(1000 in chips) instantly call with KK, blind fold and original raiser call with JJ. I thought that UTG has to fold anything but AA, but it was wrong judgement.


Well, then you could not do nothing there... I mean it was quite impossible for you to fold. Even if you only called to see a flop, the dealer with KK would have still pushed then probable UTG would have only called or pushed all in too etc... that is you would have been pot committed...

     
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Posted by PietroMC:
Blinds were 75/150, utg was original raiser, he raises 450 and has stack about 2300+450. I had 2200 and it was folded to me at cutoff. I had about 2200 in chips. I push and dealer(1000 in chips) instantly call with KK, blind fold and original raiser call with JJ. I thought that UTG has to fold anything but AA, but it was wrong judgement.


Well played, Just bad luck.

So...forgive this hand a keep playing, your move was right. That's what I think.
There was nothing you could have done different.

     
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I would never fold Kk in this situation, you don't how tight the others players and if the blinds get higher you risk getting blindet down.

     
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Posted by doomdy:
Posted by klopmand:
DON, or not, not folding ppK, is EV+. Even ICM, covers that. ICM is that and a bag of chips, lol..


U obviously never played a DoN right?


Abso - fcken - lutely .......................

     
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No I have. Plus look at the situation, 8 players is almost a full table. Unless there is some wacky situation, like 7 allins before your action(thus guaranteeing ITM), then play should be fairly standard. True, one does not need to accumulate all of the chips, BUT, you still need to knock people out. Having a big stack in a DoN is not a necessity, but gives one a huge advantage.

Even with 2 allins, folding ppK is ultra tight. Would you fold if there is just 1 allin? Plus where is that line, ie, how many allins is enough to fold????

equity win tie
Hand 0: 39.667% 02.04% 37.63% { KK }
Hand 1: 39.667% 02.04% 37.63% { KK }
Hand 2: 20.667% 20.53% 00.14% { JJ }

ppJ are still a big dog here...

     
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You don't need to knock people out in a DoN. Survival is the key.

As played it was ok. Facing an all-in and a call before your turn to act would be a different animal.

     
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Folding KK preflop is allways difficult, but easier in a DoN then a regular.
In a regular u play to win, a DoN u play to survive too the last 5 (or 3 in a 6seater).
This is totally diffirent play.

     
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You don't need to knock people out in a DoN. Survival is the key.


Ok, bumpkin, if you don't, then someone has to, right? Can't wait for the blinds to bleed off all the shortys... Do you want to play poker? or fold/survive in these DoN jobbers? House gets paid either way, btw.

DoN u play to survive too the last 5


Ok, semantics here, survive, or make the top 5??? Kinda means the same thing, or not. Survive is one, making ITM is the other.

These are sucker tourneys for ones who can't play poker. Kinda kamikaze like??? Right?

Should have stuck exclusively to them on bigbet, where I turned $10 into $50, then played like a donk.

Build a stack, don't played scared, and you can almost sitout, and let the rest bingo their way...

just, imo.

     
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Posted by klopmand:
These are sucker tourneys for ones who can't play poker. Kinda kamikaze like??? Right?


No. Do nothing, but do it good.

     
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Posted by shokaku:
You don't need to knock people out in a DoN. Survival is the key.

As played it was ok. Facing an all-in and a call before your turn to act would be a different animal.

Surviving is indeed the key in DoN . but don't think i would fold KK in a preflop .

     
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No. Do nothing, but do it good.


Another bumpkin???

When is folding good? Poker like? When is folding good?

I like folding my way ITM.
I like playing poker, because folding is free
I like playing poker, but have not learned how???

Ok, just fold, sitout, why bother with a DoN, when you can sitout and make ITM?

????

     
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