Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
The problem is ENTIRELY tax based...
PokerStars (and all other sites) DO pay tax, but like any other company, they pay the tax to the country (or area in the IOM's case) where they are domiciled and operate from.
When someone from say, Bulgaria deposits money onto PokerStars, although the money has been used from Bulgaria's GDP, the tax paid will go to the UK (not sure if IOM is it's own tax base, or they share with UK) because the service is being provided from the IOM..... So obviously Bulgaria will not be happy about that. As way of compensation, they ask PokerStars for a fee. But they do not need (by law) to pay them anything and if the fee demaded outweighs the rake generated by Bulgarian players...... you know what the result is gonna be.
From Bulgaria's point of view: (I'll use Peter as an example)
Peter goes to work at his tourism job all month - at the end of the month, he receives his pay with the income tax, and whatever Bulgaria's equivalent of NI is taken off. Let's say he gets £1000 and pays £200 in tax. He's left with £800 in his pocket and the government have £200 from him. If he then goes to the shops and spends that £800, £160 of it gets paid over in purchase tax... and the shop has £640... when they spend money in Bulgaria, again tax is paid to the Bulgarian government - so eventually, the whole amount has been paid over in tax.
The moment anyone takes money out of the country, the government lose out.
Peter's job involves encouraging people to go to Bulgaria to spend their money....
It's all just a big fight over tax dollars. There's no morality involved at all. Whatever any government says... they don't care about their people. Only money.
You are completely right that its about tax. Not only do the pokersites pay no tax to the country that the people play in, the IOM is a tax haven with 0% corporation tax, so every penny that PS earns is theirs. No tax bill...
Pokerstars not only make millions of $$$ each year and pay little or no tax on it, they also then have the cheek to faunt countries laws and use loopholes to avoid compliance. WHen they get caught they simply bring out the check book and buy their way out of trouble.
The best thing that could happen would be for every country to do what some countries have done, and ban online poker for sites that are not licensed in that country and do not pay tax on any games their residents play.
If you are in the UK, then poker should be taxed and the money going to the UK government, not some rich robbing twat using tax havens to avoid their proper liabilities.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
fcumred.... While I agree with most of what you say, there are a couple of points I must pull you up on...
IOM may be a tax haven, but that does not mean companies based there pay NO tax... they still have to pay income tax, and employers tax and NI on all their wage payments. It just means they are exempt from corporation tax - which is very nearly an "optional tax" nowadays. You can pay money to share holders, or pump it into developments to avoid corporation tax bills, whether you are in a tax haven or not.
PokerStars operate from there, partially because of the tax benefits, but mainly because it's just easier.
They, like any other company, have the choice, and the right, to operate from wherever they like.
Also, they don't flaunt any laws. I have looked through their (freely available) accounts filed, and they are totally in accordance with all countries laws and tax regulations.
They just run their company well - there's nothing immoral or wrong about that.
And a country banning it's people from playing online poker because of their tax methods, is infringing on people's liberty as much as it would be to ban people from going on holiday to Jersey. Either way, they are losing tax money - but it should be up to the people where they choose to spend their money. If you (as a country) want to earn more tax dollars, then make more things worth spending money on, and make your country a more attractive place to be... don't impose sanctions without just cause.
PokerStars do nothing wrong... governments are conning their people every day. Do not be mad at the site, be mad at the state.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Romania
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 754
Hello. I have a bulgarian at my table on pokerstars. Yes i think its the only one . So he probably is in another country. The thing is, they blocked the IP / MAC from Bulgaria. So Peter if you go for a trip to another country and take your Laptop with you, you can withdraw i think your money. Now with the taxes. When some1 win something from everywhere ( poker, casino even online ones, from sports gambling) you pay something from your winning. In Romania is 25%, if its more than $180 something like this, too lazy to do the math for the exact amount. Everything you earn above $180, you need to leave to the govenment 25%. So if you earn $10180 , you will give to the govenment , $2500, and you will remain with $7680. Not bad for you, or the government for taking something for their fat belly, by doing nothing. Bulgarians, should post something like " If bulgarians players win from online poker, you will get a share to keep your fat belly " on the government buildings, maybe they will "think", they have an ideea, and will let you play again.
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 6669
qzmag bot sure if you know but we also have a law about online gambling that wa voted in 2013 but it has been not inforced...
I'm sure that you heard they want to take 1 euro from your account every time you log in to the poker site, what happend in bulgaria can happen very soon to us too. The bad thing is that you can't even cashout the money you already had in you account!
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by yout85: fcumred.... While I agree with most of what you say, there are a couple of points I must pull you up on...
IOM may be a tax haven, but that does not mean companies based there pay NO tax... they still have to pay income tax, and employers tax and NI on all their wage payments. It just means they are exempt from corporation tax - which is very nearly an "optional tax" nowadays. You can pay money to share holders, or pump it into developments to avoid corporation tax bills, whether you are in a tax haven or not.
PokerStars operate from there, partially because of the tax benefits, but mainly because it's just easier.
They, like any other company, have the choice, and the right, to operate from wherever they like.
Also, they don't flaunt any laws. I have looked through their (freely available) accounts filed, and they are totally in accordance with all countries laws and tax regulations.
They just run their company well - there's nothing immoral or wrong about that.
And a country banning it's people from playing online poker because of their tax methods, is infringing on people's liberty as much as it would be to ban people from going on holiday to Jersey. Either way, they are losing tax money - but it should be up to the people where they choose to spend their money. If you (as a country) want to earn more tax dollars, then make more things worth spending money on, and make your country a more attractive place to be... don't impose sanctions without just cause.
PokerStars do nothing wrong... governments are conning their people every day. Do not be mad at the site, be mad at the state.
Do you work for stars?
B******t. My step dad pays corporation tax on his shitty little shop which makes hardly any money. So why do pokerstars pay hardly anything just for being in the isle of man. Its still classed as the UK so UK law should be applicable.
I'm mad at tyranny and double standards in general, not taking sides, just saying its not right.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
No sadamman, I'm an accountant... I can say with some confidence that your dad does not pay corporation tax if he owns a little shop. I believe you're just getting your tax terms mixed up. Corporation tax is only paid by corporations, ie limited companies... It is totally different from personal tax.
If your dad is paying corporation tax, he has a really bad accountant
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Well either way he pays a ridiculous amount in comparision to them. Knowing your accountant i don't really care for your view because at the end of the day its just corporate bureaucratic jargon, with cheeky little double standard loopholes. Being an accountant you must know this aswell as i do, and it's unfair. In my opinion they should be taxed based on income.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
I'm just trying to give you the facts mate... I have no agenda. I will keep this as jargon free as I can...
Pokerstars made a profit of ~$500m last year -- Being a company that obviously will have to be VAT registered they would have paid ~$50m in VAT bills. With a wage bill of ~$300m they would have paid over ~$25m in employers national insurance. So that's ~$75m in combined taxes paid on a profit of ~$500m - that's 15% which is a full 9% more than the average individual, or sole trader pays on their profits. (after expense deductions, capital allowances etc)
As a Limited Company the profit is the company's, and a company cannot be liable to pay tax. When the $500m is split between the shareholders and directors, THEN the tax becomes due.
Any one person receiving over ~$75k (depending on the country they reside in) will have to pay around 40% tax on it. Other shareholders are likely to pay anywhere from 0% (if they have no other, or very low income) to 25% - with the average, as I said being around 6%. As PokerStars is 75% shareholder owned and 25% director owned - that makes 40% of $125m and 6% of $375m... meaning a further $72.5m in taxes will be paid.
That means in total, PokerStars is responsible for paying around $147.5m in taxes per year.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by yout85: that's 15% which is a full 9% more than the average individual, or sole trader pays on their profits. (after expense deductions, capital allowances etc)
Yeah but they also make probably 1million times the amount he does. An amount which in my opinion should not be allowed. 'Expense deductions' lol that old chestnut. Ask an MP what an expense deduction is they are supposedly the authority of that and this 'democracy'
...This company has a turnover of £100,000 (Pokerstars is $2.2bn) Their "expenses deductions" are a total of the costs needed to run the company... Tax is paid on the profit. If it wasn't like this, how would any retail company survive? If the shop owner had to pay tax on the £100k, their tax bill would be virtually all their profit.
A politician receives a wage of around £60,000 They then claim ON TOP OF THAT for expenses incurred, say £20,000 But their profit would be £80,000 which they would pay tax on.
Tax is purposefully complicated, so people don't understand it, I'll admit...
I'm not totally disagreeing with you - just trying to point out you are placing the blame on the wrong side.
Joined: Dec '12
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1022
Hello mobsters,
The bulgarians which you see at the tables are using proxy servers, or they live outside Bulgaria. But using a proxy server is stupid. Because if you win a tournament you can't withraw and it is illegal.
Bulgarian Government do it very well and I support their actions. Pokerstars, Fult Tilt Poker etc. have to pay the license directly to the Bulgarian Government and after that they can operate to the Bulgarian Territory.
I don't understand it. A small site like PokerAce for example one month before closing had informed all the players with emails how to withdraw, and all the info needed, but PokerStars didn't say a word about it. They were informed by our government one month ago.
Did you know that PokerStars win every year from $10 billion untill $40 billlion. They win from rake and buy ins. So what is the problem to pay the license directly to the Bulgarian Government if they want to operate in Bulgaria?
Here is the situation:
I played at PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker two days ago, I lost some money, the softwares were incridibly slow. I mean my actions at the tables were very slow. For example if I play CALL after 15 second I CALL. I mean when I hit the CALL button, or RAISE or FOLD button my action was done after 15-20 sec.
I have strong internet 4G and it was not from internet. I played that way 3 hours, I get nervious and finally lost my money.
After that I uninstalled the software of PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker, because I get mad. Before going to bed I decided to open www.pokerstars.com but instead of PokerStars I saw The Bulgarian National Commission of Gambling and its final decissions with the list of banned poker and gambling sites.
So, now I can't install the software again because I can't open the page. I don't know what is the situation with the other bulgarians who have their software. Probably they can enter and play, but if they win they will not be allowed to play, because it is illegal for Bulgaria to play at these sites for now.
So, what is the sence to play if you can't withdraw after? And still PokerStars hasn't informed the bulgarian players is it legal to continue playing there. That is not correct. They try to win more money without caring the players. Still they keep silence and not commenting anything about that.
By the way yout85, still I don't have The PS Security Department responce.
PokerStars had applied for a license and applied to be out of the "black list" of the Bulgarian National Commisssion of Gambling. But PokerStars will be out of that "black list" when receiving the license, if the Court allows it of course.
The next session of The National Gambling Commision is on 24.07.2013, 14:00 EET
The official statement of PokerStars: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In accordance with the measures taken recently by the State Gambling Commission, currently do not allow new players for real money of Bulgaria on PokerStars. Players like you who already have established accounts with PokerStars, will not be affected of these changes. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and will notify you if there are any changes.
In The Rational Group are proud to always strive to be first in obtaining licenses in new jurisdictions where such can be obtained. We would like to assure you that applied for a license from the State Gambling Commission. Hopefully in the next few months to begin to offer our games approved by Bulgarian online poker license.
Of course, we would like to assure you that your funds are safe with us and are available at any time. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and we will notify you if there are any changes . Please, do not hesitate to contact us again if you have additional questions.
Sincerely, Kaloyan Maintenance Department to PokerStars -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you see the old bulgarian players can play at PokerStars, but new players cant. But uninstalled the software so I can't install it again. So I can't play.
Actually, the real problem here is that PokerStars say there is now problems for bulgarian players to play, but the bulgarian laws about gambling have changed, so that means if bulgarians play at PokerStars (no license), that is a crime.
The Bulgarian Autorities say it is illegal to play online poker at sites without license, PokerStars say: old players can play without problems. What an absurd! Isn't it?
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
The thing is that governments ask for crazy things as usual. There is no logic in their asking demands, they just need the extra pack of money to fulfill their ambitions as politicians and get established by that. And like most of the times they fail in doing so.
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
Posted by Mober: The thing is that governments ask for crazy things as usual. There is no logic in their asking demands, they just need the extra pack of money to fulfill their ambitions as politicians and get established by that. And like most of the times they fail in doing so.
Posted by yout85: fcumred.... While I agree with most of what you say, there are a couple of points I must pull you up on...
IOM may be a tax haven, but that does not mean companies based there pay NO tax... they still have to pay income tax, and employers tax and NI on all their wage payments. It just means they are exempt from corporation tax - which is very nearly an "optional tax" nowadays. You can pay money to share holders, or pump it into developments to avoid corporation tax bills, whether you are in a tax haven or not.
PokerStars operate from there, partially because of the tax benefits, but mainly because it's just easier.
They, like any other company, have the choice, and the right, to operate from wherever they like.
Also, they don't flaunt any laws. I have looked through their (freely available) accounts filed, and they are totally in accordance with all countries laws and tax regulations.
They just run their company well - there's nothing immoral or wrong about that.
And a country banning it's people from playing online poker because of their tax methods, is infringing on people's liberty as much as it would be to ban people from going on holiday to Jersey. Either way, they are losing tax money - but it should be up to the people where they choose to spend their money. If you (as a country) want to earn more tax dollars, then make more things worth spending money on, and make your country a more attractive place to be... don't impose sanctions without just cause.
PokerStars do nothing wrong... governments are conning their people every day. Do not be mad at the site, be mad at the state.
Sorry, but the laws in the US were quite clear. It was illegal for poker sites to accept payments from players in the USA. Pokerstars not only took payments from players which was against the UIGEA, they deliberately committed fraud by pretending that they were taking money payments for things other than poker.
They knew damn well they were not permitted to take the payments from the US players, but continued to do so. They were warned to stop and they simply ignored the warning, which resulted in thousands of americans having their bankrolls suddenly taken from them.
Pokerstars were due to be prosecuted but came up with this "if we pay you s**t loads can you forget what you saw". The US government played ball and agreed not to prosecute as long as Pokerstars paid the money and took over full tilt poker and repaid all those lost bankrolls.
Pokerstars did just that, and now having paid the US government millions of dollars as a backhander to avoid prosecution, they are being edged back into the market so they can basically take the entire US market for their own.
Pokerstars should have been prosecuted for what they were doing, and the US government is a disgrace in taking the money off pokerstars and letting them get away with it scott free. Even worse they now look like they are going to reward Pokerstars by making them one of the few sites that will be allowed to operate in the US..
Joined: Feb '12
Location: Canada
Age: 64 (M)
Posts: 6036
I keep seeing lots and lots of Bulgarians playing too.... both on PokerStars and Full Tilt.
Hey,...you guys in Bulgaria who CAN'T play right now, should take the time to go to the beach and catch up on your reading...
I saw something on TV last night how they are putting outdoor libraries on all the beaches in Bulgaria...
You could brush up on Bulgarian law,....and figure out how to defeat your government's anti-pokerstars legislation,....all the while watching the 'Melons' pass by....
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 6669
Unfortunately the legislation is against online poker in general not just pokerstars and full tilt poker...
Stil it will be interesting to see what type of license the go will eventually offer, i mean they could do it like in france or spain where you can only play with players from your country or a license for the .com domain so you could play against the world.
Report on the letter received at the SCG from Rational GROUP LTD / Os. № 818/09.07.2013/
2. The State Gambling Commission received a letter from Rational GROUP LTD in relation to a company's written request for a license to organize gambling games from a distance via the Internet.
In this regard, the company believes that the inclusion of the brand sites "PokerStars" listed under Art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act should be revised.
Pursuant to Art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act, the State Gaming Commission determines websites by organized gambling by persons who are not licensed under this Act and ordered cessation of infringements. In pursuance of its power to its website, the Commission shall establish, update and maintain a list of these websites.
Given its jurisdiction to determine websites by organized gambling by persons who are not licensed under the Gambling Act, the State Commission on Gambling with decision № 728 of 24.06.2013 is included in the list of art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act websites: http://www.pokerstars.bg and http://www.pokerstars.com. Subsequently, by Order of 28.06.2013 the Chairman of the the Sofia District Court was ordered to all providers to suspend access to specific websites, including those made by the subject of Rational GROUP LTD request.
At a meeting held on 07.10.2013, the members of the State Gambling Commission examined and discussed by the incoming Rational GROUP LTD letter on the licensing of "PokerStars" and review the inclusion of the websites of the brand "PokerStars" listed under Art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act.
Although the company Rational GROUP LTD has initiated an administrative procedure for issuance of license to organize gambling at a distance by Internet, that circumstance is not intended by the legislator as a base which automatically lead to exclusion application of Art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act.
The date of acceptance of the decision of the State Commission on Gambling websites "PokerStars" were available and active in the geographical territory of the Republic of Bulgaria. Rational GROUP LTD did not have and did not hold a license for organizing gambling games, issued by the State Gambling Commission under the Gambling Act. The Application for a license to organize gambling games at a distance by Internet through Gambling Act, Rational GROUP LTD is not a basis which has made a request for exclusion from the list of websites by organized gambling by persons not licensed under the gambling Act.
In view of the foregoing and pursuant to Art. 27, para. 2 of the Gambling Act State Gambling Commission
DECIDED:
Finds unacceptable and premature the application of Rational GROUP LTD company to review the decision of the State Commission on Gambling 24/06/2013 with reference to include the websites: http//:www.pokerstars.bg and http//:www.pokerstars.com of the brand "PokerStars" listed under Art. 22, para. 1, item 14 of the Gambling Act.
. So he probably is in another country. The thing is, they blocked the IP / MAC from Bulgaria. So Peter if you go for a trip to another country and take your Laptop with you, you can withdraw i think your money. 
