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Okay, so I feel like I'm pretty knowledgeable in shove/fold ranges, ICM and all that. But from time to time, I find an interesting spot like this one, that leaves me scratching my head:
So basically, the spot is we only have to call effectively 2BB to potentially win at least a 4bb pot, so we're effectively getting 2 to 1 odds, IF BB doesn't call. If BB calls, the pot will be 5BB so essentially we're getting 2.5 to 1.
We can assume BB is calling 100% of the time, given 1/2 his stack is in, if he has half a brain he's calling literally any 2. We can also take 1 of 2 views on BB shove. Either he's shoving wide, hoping to get us to fold and isolate, or he's shoving tight since he knows our calling range will likely be wider, and BB is pretty much committed to call no matter what we do.
Given we get 2.5 to 1 odds, what sort of range are we calling here, and if so is K-8o part of that range?
Edited by retribution (22 November 2011 @ 07:02 GMT)
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The all-in guy may have hit a monster and decided it was the only chance for him to dream with the prize in this SnG. There are other players with the same number of chips he has and he was the first to talk so, he isn’t just robbing. You have a big advantage but your hand isn’t big deal. If you decide to go, you will be probably running against AK, AQ, AJ, JJ, 1010… nothing that put you in advantage. I would easy fold if I were you. I understand that you are not putting your tourney in risk with a call to this and that you can give a good upgrade to you chip amount if you win this pot, but I would fold in the same.
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For me, the fact that big blind is getting to the point where he will go all-in with any two half decent cards, especially if he already has so much in the pot, and button should know this and is still pushing, means I should get out of the way and let one of the two shorties get eliminated. If I call with K-8 my feeling is I am just providing them with a chance to triple up and for my stack to become medium sized and not too threatening anymore for the big stack.
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Hi retribution.
No way you can call here. If bb push before your call... Call the push if Ev- and fold before first call is Ev-. the only play 'reasonable' is allin/fold, in my opinion. And i like reraise Kx in that situation, BB have a hard call with it.
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Posted by IslandJack: New to this stuff. Tried to figure this out but I don't get something here.
Button raises to 1.530 you are SB with 4.270 BB has stack 1.090 everyone folded to Button
...right?
Reading the comments here, how can BB push before the SB ? Am I missing something?
We are just anticipating what would happen if retribution in the SB calls. The SB needs to make a decision right now, but we are thinking the BB might push anyways due to his stack size.
In this spot I'v been taught this...with a raise and/or reraise ahead of me....the only two hands I can hold to call/shove with are AA/KK. Everything else is a fold. In this case for myself this rules applies...I can't justify the odds compaired to my hand strength based on the ICM chart. It's a sub marginal hand and good chance I'm dominated and won't be heads up. Too many negatives to risk my stack on. I'd be lookin for a better spot with those odds and the reverse pot odds turn me into a dog. Basically a coin flip...your call.
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For every player at that table it is push or fold, I would expect to isolate here and will go AI. The biggest problem is the blinds, you have no time to outplay anyone, you need chips you need to be aggressive or settle for what you are given.
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With blinds like this I would just fold. Blinds are so big that you will win almost the same amount just by stealing BB+SB. Wait for a better hand, you are going to be on the button next hand so you still have a whole round to hit a good hand and push all-in.
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Pretty easy one IMO,get it in all day long,it's not even close. You wont get many oppotunities to steal the deadmoney,with stacks being that shallow,so you have to take every oppotunity in hands you get such great odds in. It's basicly a ChipEV-only spot tbh. ICM doesnt really apply too much here,still a long way to go till the bubble,and your stack isn't big enough to fold into the money. Even if it does,there can still be made another argument that you can completely dominate the bubble if you win this hand.
As for the range... Any A,most Ks,any broadway,any suited connectors (65s and up),suited 1 gappers 97s+,any pocket of course. basicly these plus hands that play well vs. 2 random ranges in general. J7s+,Q8s+,you know,stuff like that
EDIT:
Posted by rbdflyboy: In this spot I'v been taught this...with a raise and/or reraise ahead of me....the only two hands I can hold to call/shove with are AA/KK. Everything else is a fold. In this case for myself this rules applies...I can't justify the odds compaired to my hand strength based on the chart. It's a sub marginal hand and good chance I'm dominated and won't be heads up. Too many negatives to risk my stack on. I'd be lookin for a better spot with those odds and the reverse pot odds turn me into a dog. Basically a coin flip...your call.
Just seen this. Basicly,in a hyper turbo (just assuming it is one based on blinds compared to stacks),everything down to the bubble should be played in ChipEV. You can almost ignore ICM till that point. accumulating chips is much more important and a much better strategy than folding to the bubble and maybe barely make the money,being crippled when you got there. Picking up the deadmoney by shoving with such shallow stacks will be almost impossible,and waiting for a hand that beats peoples range is also not possible with such blinds. If you had about 7K or so at this point,you could make an argument for folding because the chips you gain wont change your situation much,however if you lose the hand it will hurt you alot. This doesnt apply here though. Here it's basicly that winning can get you into a great position for future play,while if you lose,it wont hurt you as much because the effective stacksizes dont change for you anyways.
The rule you are talking about is if effective stacksizes are bigger and we are already on the bubble. Here there are 7 people left. Folding everything but AA/KK in this spot is super terrible
Edited by BeMyATMplz (22 November 2011 @ 18:21 GMT)
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Posted by BeMyATMplz: Pretty easy one IMO,get it in all day long,it's not even close. You wont get many oppotunities to steal the deadmoney,with stacks being that shallow,so you have to take every oppotunity in hands you get such great odds in. It's basicly a ChipEV-only spot tbh. ICM doesnt really apply too much here,still a long way to go till the bubble,and your stack isn't big enough to fold into the money. Even if it does,there can still be made another argument that you can completely dominate the bubble if you win this hand.
As for the range... Any A,most Ks,any broadway,any suited connectors (65s and up),suited 1 gappers 97s+,any pocket of course. basicly these plus hands that play well vs. 2 random ranges in general. J7s+,Q8s+,you know,stuff like that
EDIT:
Posted by rbdflyboy: In this spot I'v been taught this...with a raise and/or reraise ahead of me....the only two hands I can hold to call/shove with are AA/KK. Everything else is a fold. In this case for myself this rules applies...I can't justify the odds compaired to my hand strength based on the chart. It's a sub marginal hand and good chance I'm dominated and won't be heads up. Too many negatives to risk my stack on. I'd be lookin for a better spot with those odds and the reverse pot odds turn me into a dog. Basically a coin flip...your call.
Just seen this. Basicly,in a hyper turbo (just assuming it is one based on blinds compared to stacks),everything down to the bubble should be played in ChipEV. You can almost ignore ICM till that point. accumulating chips is much more important and a much better strategy than folding to the bubble and maybe barely make the money,being crippled when you got there. Picking up the deadmoney by shoving with such shallow stacks will be almost impossible,and waiting for a hand that beats peoples range is also not possible with such blinds. If you had about 7K or so at this point,you could make an argument for folding because the chips you gain wont change your situation much,however if you lose the hand it will hurt you alot. This doesnt apply here though. Here it's basicly that winning can get you into a great position for future play,while if you lose,it wont hurt you as much because the effective stacksizes dont change for you anyways.
The rule you are talking about is if effective stacksizes are bigger and we are already on the bubble. Here there are 7 people left. Folding everything but AA/KK in this spot is super terrible
This is Party pokers equivalent to a super Turbo. Blinds start 20/40 with stacks at 2k, but blinds go up every 3 minutes, so while it's not a Super turbo per se, where everyone starts 10bb deep, it's effectively the same thing due to the rapid blinds.
And to clear it up a bit, yes it folds around to button, who shoves. BB is likely going to call given he has half his stack in. Like I said, any player with half a brain will recognize that they have to call literally ATC here. If I were in BB spot, I'd snap call any 2 all day long. I'd rather accept a flip where I'm dominated than give up my blind there.
My thought process is along the same line. I'm only risking 1/4 of my stack to potentially knock out 2 people and put us closer to the bubble. In these Turbos, once you get 5 handed, with blinds this high, you can really widen up and start to lean on the shorter stacks, as everyone tightens up hoping to squeak into the money. That's why spots like this are so tough, as having a large stack size is so important because it puts us in a position where we can really abuse the other players and control the table.
Definately not folding AA/KK in this spot, I'd say my comfortable calling range to co''s shove is probably 66+, J10s+, Q10o+,K10o+ and probably any ace. To me K8 is border line, but given the odds to call, I think it's almost +ev to call given the risk/vs gain.
I'm not overly concerned with BB as he doesn't really factor into the equation. What i'm interested in is our profitable calling range vs CO's shoving range.
*edit* I'm gunna run this through ICM wizard later when I have some time, and I'll post the results.
Posted by BeMyATMplz: Pretty easy one IMO,get it in all day long,it's not even close. You wont get many oppotunities to steal the deadmoney,with stacks being that shallow,so you have to take every oppotunity in hands you get such great odds in. It's basicly a ChipEV-only spot tbh. ICM doesnt really apply too much here,still a long way to go till the bubble,and your stack isn't big enough to fold into the money. Even if it does,there can still be made another argument that you can completely dominate the bubble if you win this hand.
As for the range... Any A,most Ks,any broadway,any suited connectors (65s and up),suited 1 gappers 97s+,any pocket of course. basicly these plus hands that play well vs. 2 random ranges in general. J7s+,Q8s+,you know,stuff like that
EDIT:
Posted by rbdflyboy: In this spot I'v been taught this...with a raise and/or reraise ahead of me....the only two hands I can hold to call/shove with are AA/KK. Everything else is a fold. In this case for myself this rules applies...I can't justify the odds compaired to my hand strength based on the chart. It's a sub marginal hand and good chance I'm dominated and won't be heads up. Too many negatives to risk my stack on. I'd be lookin for a better spot with those odds and the reverse pot odds turn me into a dog. Basically a coin flip...your call.
Just seen this. Basicly,in a hyper turbo (just assuming it is one based on blinds compared to stacks),everything down to the bubble should be played in ChipEV. You can almost ignore ICM till that point. accumulating chips is much more important and a much better strategy than folding to the bubble and maybe barely make the money,being crippled when you got there. Picking up the deadmoney by shoving with such shallow stacks will be almost impossible,and waiting for a hand that beats peoples range is also not possible with such blinds. If you had about 7K or so at this point,you could make an argument for folding because the chips you gain wont change your situation much,however if you lose the hand it will hurt you alot. This doesnt apply here though. Here it's basicly that winning can get you into a great position for future play,while if you lose,it wont hurt you as much because the effective stacksizes dont change for you anyways.
The rule you are talking about is if effective stacksizes are bigger and we are already on the bubble. Here there are 7 people left. Folding everything but AA/KK in this spot is super terrible
Yes I see your point here. I've been on the other side of the coin here as well where I make the call, lose, and can't recover. I still think in this spot I'm going to preserve my stack to use it more effectively later on. I must get lucky or I can lose the min....and I'm not lucky.
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Posted by retribution: *edit* I'm gunna run this through ICM wizard later when I have some time, and I'll post the results.
Just did it for you,thats our shoving range: 33+/Ax/K6o+/Kxs/Q8o+/Q6s+/J9o+/J7s+/T9+/T7s+/97s+/87s
I used a shoving range of 55% for BTN and a calling range of 100% for BB. Can surely be widened up a little bit because wiz doesnt consider future play,the thing is if we win this pot then we have a great chance of winning becuase we can abuse on the bubble,thats what it doesnt take into consideration. 22 should obv. be included as well
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Very interesting results there, didn't think that the shoving range would be so wide. I take back my "advice", seems like going all-in is the best option then
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Posted by BeMyATMplz:
Posted by retribution: *edit* I'm gunna run this through ICM wizard later when I have some time, and I'll post the results.
Just did it for you,thats our shoving range: 33+/Ax/K6o+/Kxs/Q8o+/Q6s+/J9o+/J7s+/T9+/T7s+/97s+/87s
I used a shoving range of 55% for BTN and a calling range of 100% for BB. Can surely be widened up a little bit because wiz doesnt consider future play,the thing is if we win this pot then we have a great chance of winning becuase we can abuse on the bubble,thats what it doesnt take into consideration. 22 should obv. be included as well
I tend to be somewhat of a nit, thus my shove/calling ranges tend to be a little bit tighter than they need be. Then again these are micros, where EVERYONES shove/call range is substantially wider than they should be, thus why they are so profitable. I swear around 99.9% of micro/low stakes STT grinders have no clue of ICM/Nash shove/fold concepts
I'm actually quite suprised ICM wiz's shove range is so wide there though. The one thing I dislike about ICM wizard is that it is purely math based, and as you stated doesn't factor in other factor such as table dynamics, and how the outcome weighs against our potential stack size for the following hands.
From a pure mathematical point though, I think given the pot odds, it does make sense for the shove/call range to be that high. Will have to go in and toy around and see how adjusting CO's shove range affects our calling range. I would imagine not that much.
*Edit* hmmm, so K8o specifically call as long as we assume CO is shoving at least 43%.
The tightest calling range seems to be - 33.8% 33+, A2+, K8+, k5S+, q9+, q8S+, JT, J8s+, t8s+ based on CO shoving 43%.
The loosest calling range seems to be - 61.4% 22+, a2+,k2+,q4+,q2s+,j6+,js+,t7+,t4s+ based on CO shoving 100%.
I think I need to widen my ranges somewhat
Edited by retribution (23 November 2011 @ 00:36 GMT)
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Posted by retribution: I swear around 99.9% of micro/low stakes STT grinders have no clue of /Nash shove/fold concepts
lol tell me about it I play $7 and $15 18s on stars lately,they're relativly similar to 9 mans in terms of ICM (with the exceptions that in 9 mans you have to play a little more topheavy,but not much). Even the "good" regs snap with stuff like AQ when their calling range should be TT+,then they wonder why they cant get beyond 5% ROI
Yeah the widen up part in general always depends on opponents. In a $1 SNG the tighter line (at least when being bigstack on the bubble) could actually be the better line because people just wont fold AT+ when needed. As shortstack however you should probably become slightly looser because people wont know how wide they actually should call.
idk,it's been a long time since I played that low and when I did had no clue about anything like ranges,ICM etc,but thats how I would adapt to the donks
I play $7 and $15 18s on stars lately,they're relativly similar to 9 mans in terms of ICM (with the exceptions that in 9 mans you have to play a little more topheavy,but not much).
