Joined: Oct '07
Location: Philippines
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1443
I too do not use any as they cost something, also, I can rely a decision on a software, probably an aid but still, the best is to use your "gut feeling" or instincts.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 179
i agree with im2good4u software aids and those types of things, prolly work, but it takes the skill out of poker and the gut feeling, theres not that "rush" anymore...i think its stupid to use/buy them
Joined: Oct '07
Location: Philippines
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1443
Statistics tracker? is it something like a software that tells you how much have you folded pre-flop, showdowns and things like that? What is the best software for that?
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Brazil
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 273
Posted by Im2good4u: Statistics tracker? is it something like a software that tells you how much have you folded pre-flop, showdowns and things like that? What is the best software for that?
I guess Poker Tracker is the best software for that and it does many others things too... At www.p**************m/ You can download a free trial... The problem is that the Key is like a Anti virus key, last for 1 year
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Ireland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 136
Couldn't disagree more with Im2good4u. For example, PT does not replace "gut feeling" but adds to it, refines it, and makes it more accurate. It costs like $50 and if you are playing .25/.50 or above you will be lost without it. You may profit without it, but just be safe in the knowledge that all the winning regs in these games have it, and probably have a few 1000 hands worth of statistics on you, and so have a better idea of how you play.
I was just wondering as most people on here seem not to have heard of or use Poker Tracker and PAHUD which are most basic and essential tools for any aspiring poker player.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
I dont use anything, i did tried some though. They only mess up with my decissions, im talking about various calculators. Poker office i dont think ive tried it, but think that nothing can help you against good player, he doesnt play same game all the time and they are aware that people track others so they use that in their advantage. So either way youre screwed. If you cannot put a value on the hand, is it good or bad or is bluff possible and not possible, dont play that hand at all and dont bluff. Thats everything there is to know about hand. If youre really the beginner and youre learning how to play, then those calculators can be some kind of real time learning software, and pokeroffice as your text book, where you can evaluate your play. And one other thing while thinking about what some software is telling you to do, youre missing strategic part of the game and concentrating only on odds. My limit in keeping track of the players is those notes you can make on someone inside of the client, and i put things when someone does something really stupid to let me know he is stupid player, or maniac, and good stuff about people who are relaxed, play that way and are not bloodsuckers. It is good from time to time just to play not to go for the money and why not playing with people that fit that kind of play the best. Oh yeah and another thing, most of the stuff that can give you advantage are not supported on most poker rooms. Other stuff is just sponsored by those sites and therefore allowed.
Joined: Oct '07
Location: Philippines
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1443
Maybe the problem with this is what if you have a good card, say AK suited, however, your gut feeling tells you to fold, but software gives you nice stats since it's a high card, you call / all-in then lose, that's gonna be hard so I think i'll keep away from them at the moment.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Ireland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 136
Posted by Im2good4u: Maybe the problem with this is what if you have a good card, say AK suited, however, your gut feeling tells you to fold, but software gives you nice stats since it's a high card, you call / all-in then lose, that's gonna be hard so I think i'll keep away from them at the moment.
I'm not sure you understand what PokerTracker/PAHUD/other programs do. They do not tell you what to do. You obv make your own decisions. PokerTracker gives statistics of your own and villains play, eg aggression on each street, %fold to cbet, %raise cbet, % raise preflop, %reraise preflop, and from which positions, and with which hands. ie it lets you review our own performance and see where you can improve, and also review your regular opponents performance and see how they play, and so how to exploit them.
PAHUD overlays some of these statistics onto your table as you play so you will be able to estimate more accurately what is the correct play.
Other programs do other tasks.
They are massively useful imo, and I am confused why people are suspicious of them?
Would you not find it useful to know how bad a certain player was? That you can just sit down at a table of opponents you have never played with and instantly know how they play, how good they are etc? Do you not think it strange that all the best players in the world use it?
The AK example is also very results-based thinking here which is badly off.
And to Predobar? I don't really understand your post? Maths is the strategic point of the game? This game is based on maths? Anything that you say is not I can take back to you instinctively using maths/stats. If you talk strategy while excluding some simple calcs then you are missing so much.
You say good players don't play the same? Bad players don't either. Have you come across the concept of a hand range? Are you suggesting that not tracking a good player is better than having stats on him/her? Why would you think this???? Just because he varies his play? Merges/balances his range? Nobody plays unexploitable poker, and stats can help you to find how to exploit someone.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 407
I dont use them. I know my odds EX: after the flop figure out haw many outs you have and multiply by 4 and ad 2 points, or after the turn multiply your outs by 2. What I was wondering is how people say that they can look at your player stats in a data base. Ive had people tell me that during tourns. Are they full of BS?
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
REPLY: And to Predobar? I don't really understand your ...
First i want to apologize in advance because i just woke up and maybe ill be a little bitchie, its not the intention. If you play A-K everytime exactly the same or almost the same, your opponents will know you are holding A-K and adjust their play as they see fit. Ultimate goal in poker is to get as much chip or money from your opponents as you can. Would you call a raise if you are holding A-Q and opponent is holding A-K while theres A-K-x on the flop? I guess not. But knowing that people can track your gameplay is much more advantageous to you than to your opponents because if you bluff them right they will fold their A-Q while youre holding 5-2. On the other hand if you dont raise your A-K as you did before and decide to play them like a 5-2 then someone with A-Q will call and even reraise your A-K. Thats what im saying. Other thing about the software is that they started spamming my mailbox which i dont use anywhere and is associated with my ISP account. I dont want to do commercials but i dont like giving someone more information than they should have. And as much as poker is about odds, it is the same amount of luck and your gameplay which will decide the winner so its about 33%. Thats why badbeats happen and donks exists. And yes if you would want to play unexpected poker you could, use playmoney and try it youll see that either people will leave the table or begin allin ritual thinking youre some maniac and doesnt know how to play while you are really in control of the table. That is why playmoney tables exist.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Ireland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 136
Posted by jack37: I dont use them. I know my odds EX: after the flop figure out haw many outs you have and multiply by 4 and ad 2 points, or after the turn multiply your outs by 2. What I was wondering is how people say that they can look at your player stats in a data base. Ive had people tell me that during tourns. Are they full of BS?
They aren't full of BS.I presume they said you play something of the form 18/16/3 or something similar. These are just some stats that they have on you. It helps them define your style of play. If I can Ill post a pic of the stats I woul dhave on others at a table, and maybe a pic of my database.
These just help in defining your range or deciding how likely each of your actions will be at a certain point. It does not tell you what to do. It gives you stats on your opponent, that is all. Any program that tells you what to do would most likely lose you money and be completely useless. (For NL, for FL these exist and are profitable at all stakes.)
Also, the aids I am talking about are not for calculating your odds. That simple formula you give is a very rough approximation. A good bit off from what is exact but it is simple so easy to use.
Predobar? Are you just talking about balancing you range? This has nothing to do with software aids. No program could tell you exactly what your opponent holds. Obv if you play each hand the same way you will be open to exploitation, but this isnt what this thread is about. If you want to start a thread about how to balance/merge your range, and how to play against villains who do/do not balance or merge their ranges, I would love to paticipate and would love to here your views. However, this thread is about software and how many people use it. There is basically no argument that can say that they are not beneficial, as extra information can always help in making your play increasingly pefect.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 407
What I was refering to is someone said that they can tell what size tournaments you have played in and how well you have finished in these tournaments. Im pretty sure you are talking about keeping stats of people you have played against.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
Look sorry if i jumped into thread where you want to pickout aid which is the best. I wanted to say that any aid, calculator or tracking, is not so much of a help if youre playing against good poker player. They can only misslead you into betting more than you otherwise will in a hand that by stats is looking like someone is bluffing or holding something else and not the nuts. That is short version. And please tell me what can you tell if i have finished in tourney 10th, 128th, 783rd. Nothing. It could be badbeat it doesnt say that anywhere. What I said before, if you cannot put a value on your hand, is it the winning hand or not, dont bet to much on those cards. If you cannot tell what are your oppoenents hands dont bet to much either. And if you cannot tell if someone is bluffing dont call. If you cannot tell that your bluff will work dont bluff. Variables that affect those decisions change in real time and one player may get feeling that youre bluffing because some stupid, not play related thing like your connection hanged for second or two, and he calls your bluff. Hes on tilt because some other table tilted him. Opponent is tired and calls because hes not able to see that he is not holding the nuts. To many variables with which no software can help you with. You cannot see oppoenent and tell hes tired, tilted or anything. So you are the only variable on which you can actually put value. Thats why those dont play and dont bluff if... etc.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1170
in away i tihnk it does take all the real game out of poker in away its abit like using a calculator to pass your maths exam it defeats the object of the matter but thats just my opinion
