Only logged-in members can vote!
→ Click here to create a Mob account which gives you access to our forum and all our free bankrolls (no deposit bonuses) → Log in to existing account!
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 852
I didn't really understand most of it.....Let's simplify. Did you answer the poll? If so do you play for skill? Or are you just another Donkey that thinks all online poker sites are out to get them?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
@ Doberhain
I'm going to be pleasant here - because I've already been banned once in this thread. That post you "deconstructed" was pretty much spot on - I actually know a fair bit about programming and can write simple programs myself. I can verify that most of the RNG theories are NOT plausible for the reasons outlined in that large post. It simply isn't feasible to control all the hands in such a fashion.
Also - there is no way to manipulate the hands in such a way that it would be hidden. Very simply any alterations that prevented the game from being truly random by their very nature would show up in statistical analysis. Basically - put a large enough sample of hands together and everything will play out according to it's mathematical probability. If the poker site in any way manipulated this then the data would reflect this.
There is a certain amount of royal flushes, quads, etc that are expected over a given amount of hands. A certain amount of times runner runner straights will out-draw flopped sets of aces, etc. Basically - over a large enough sample of hands either everything is as it should be or it isn't. Now - people have done this already (I can't provide links because it's against BRM rules - but you seriously shouldn't have trouble googling it) - and EVERY single time somebody has analysed a large sample of hands it has shown to indicate the RNG is NOT rigged in any way.
------------
Posted by Btownd87: When poker sites 'rig' their games, they make playable hands appear more often, and have diverse boards in play so as to make the impression of playability more distinct. If they didn't do this, their revenues from rake would be much less.
Remember, online poker is a business. As with any business...the bottom line is key.
it's seriously so difficult not to get myself banned again when I read this thread
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
I dont get your point jess, its obvious that online poker is rigged, RNGs were created by the sites and regulated by co-funders of the sites, they are designed in a way to keep the money spiraling to the top were the Pros play were the rake is greater giving the sites more money in rake and fees. Hands are controlled in a huge controll room, each hand is pre delt then site workers will transfer hands from one table to anouther to maxamise action flops and ensure the Pros will come off winners, this way when analized no annomalies will show and RNGs look legit. We are all well aware that you are one of those "controll" people, using your programming experiance to try put us all of the trail, Id just like to know what site it is that you work for and if you take backhanders, nice 50/50 deal for tourns.
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 3871
Posted by B1gfoot: I dont get your point jess, its obvious that online poker is rigged, RNGs were created by the sites and regulated by co-funders of the sites, they are designed in a way to keep the money spiraling to the top were the Pros play were the rake is greater giving the sites more money in rake and fees. Hands are controlled in a huge controll room, each hand is pre delt then site workers will transfer hands from one table to anouther to maxamise action flops and ensure the Pros will come off winners, this way when analized no annomalies will show and RNGs look legit. We are all well aware that you are one of those "controll" people, using your programming experiance to try put us all of the trail, Id just like to know what site it is that you work for and if you take backhanders, nice 50/50 deal for tourns.
cmon b1gfoot we all know the guy in the picture is only you during your daily multitabling session
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by jessthehuman: @ Doberhain
I'm going to be pleasant here - because I've already been banned once in this thread.
Hey, take it easy and call me whatever you like, hotshot. I told it once that I dont care about, it just shows up the way people like you handle others with a different opinion. Nevertheless your arguments do not satisfy me at all, so hate me if you like or hack my system (if you can), install a trojan, steal my playmoney and get happy with it.
@hoodi420:
Same to you, this was a brainless thread from the beginning and I am out of here now. Just keep voting thumbs down for all the "idiots" who wanted to start a serious discussion.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 852
@hoodi420:
Same to you, this was a brainless thread from the beginning and I am out of here now. Just keep voting thumbs down for all the "idiots" who wanted to start a serious discussion. [/QUOTE] If it was so brainless then why did you bother to read it, & reply even. F.Y.I. I don't consider crackpot conspiracy theories "serious" discussion. You don't like this thread, good, see ya, there's no door, just leave, ok,buh-bye now.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 10
@Doberhain ..
For some reason I didn't get a email alerting me to replies so apologies for the delay.
Yes, I've been working in gaming for 10 years and I've worked for some of the biggest companies in the world. 888, Tain Poker Network etc etc on both sides of the Atlantic and also some smaller 'start-up' companies so I think I have a pretty good handle on the industry. I have predominantly been involved on the Fraud and then Operations side so my background is very much fraud (both external and internal)
I'm happy to talk to anyone in public or private about my experiences in the industry so feel free to PM me or ask me in a thread. I'm not currently working for a gaming site so I have no particular affinity or bias.
I will say that I have been 'aware' of companies who run casino's where the payout % stated is a long way from the reality of what actually is paid out (and no I won't name name's publicly ...so don't ask!)
I'll try and answer your immediate Q's tho..
Superusers... Yes (as we all know) it has happened but every site I have worked for has made sure that every hole like that is well and truly plugged.
Hacking - In order to be hacked in a fashion that could affect your games then the hacker would have to have hacked your computer and have a real time tap into your internet connection and the system - As far as I'm aware it's never happened
Rigged software.... honestly, there's no point. We (the companies) don't care who wins, once you get above about 100 regular users then there's little point looking at your players on an individual basis. No offense to you guys but as far as the company is concerned you don't really matter (unless you're multi-tabling 10+ tables @$1-2 stakes and above - In which case you probably have a personal rep).
Here's a very very rough little example... (Please don't comment on the maths 'cos I know there's a lot more variables but this is just an idea)
Go to a poker site and have a look how many tables they have active Then take the average number of hands per hour (normally about 60-80) Then take the average rake per hand (say $0.50)
So now you have a basic rough idea of how much the sites are making (I will say that the operating costs of a site are HUGE so don't take all that as profit).
Really... is it really worth them screwing you out of one or two hands to make an extra $0.50? and if they're screwing you, then someone else is getting the benefit.. so we go back to the hand having to be 'mapped out' beforehand ...and the system knowing that you're going to call or bet.
Finally, hiding something as sophisticated as a program to manipulate hands etc would be impossible to cover up. The reason companies are audited by people like PWC is to show that there's nothing like that in there and to make sure that the RNG is random.
Honestly, there's sooo much money in the industry that attempting to screw your players for a few cents extra per hand is not only pointless but would only be attempted by the most shortsighted of sites. You get caught (a la AP/UB) and your site gets its credibility destroyed and unless you have a massive base it could well be the end of the site.
I'm happy to answer/clarify on any of this if people have question but the bottom line is that honestly, it's not rigged.... (Don't for 1 second think that I haven't often thought it is as well when that 1 outer hits! )
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by jessthehuman: great post dBigMac +1
Although - I can guarantee it is falling on deaf ears. Or worse; stupid ears.
You really make me laugh, man. Really, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but I couldn´t resist to let a big smile here and my thumps up for you
@dBigMac: Thanks for the response and your offer!
Indeed there are a few additional questions I would like to ask you, about some specific circumstances that I faced. Not many, only the most important. I really would apreciate that, if you would find the time to answer my PM. But no need to hurry. It´s late now after a long friday night and I will visit my bed first, before I am going to arrange them.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Doberhain:... I wanted to stay out of this thread, but I couldn't resist ...
I can never stay out of these threads either
------------
Posted by timborep: Only to get the same copy paste email from them the generator that fulltilt and most A - B sites use constantly shuffles the cards meaning if you wait two secs to call the turn the river will be different then if you wait 5 seconds to call.
Just FYI to anyone who cares about how the shuffle is done: PKR use a "deck replication" type shuffle. Meaning the deck is only shuffled once; before the deal. So it makes ZERO different when you click call/fold etc.
ALso - FWIW : Due to the nature of "random" it really doesn't matter whether the cards are decided before the deal or after - either way you will get random card X. Its not worth hurting your head over thinking between the difference of one random number and another. They're both random numbers until they resolve into being. It's a basic quantamn equation like schrodinger's cat and honestly you can't factor in this number until it exists. So clicking at 30sec on the timer and 25sec on the timer both have the same result; a random number.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
It's a basic quantamn equation like schrodinger's cat and honestly you can't factor in this number until it exists.
Ahem - but the cat is alive and dead at the same time until aprovement wich condition shows up, just to be exact. I asked my good friend S.Hawking, if there is a chance for the possible existence of a universe where the cat always would be dead, when opening the chest. Got no answer so far, I suppose he still tries to open that damned chest I sent him
But I believe there must be such a universe. If there´s one where you lose every hand you play, then there must be one where the cat is always dead. That´s frustrating.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by Doberhain:
It's a basic quantamn equation like schrodinger's cat and honestly you can't factor in this number until it exists.
Ahem - but the cat is alive and dead at the same time until
This is my point. Each random card represents ALL of the unknown cards in the deck at the same time - right until the moment it resolves into a single card. So a random card picked at 30seconds and a random card picket at 15seconds for example BOTH have a quantumn state that represents all remaining cards in the deck - so it makes no difference.
------------ hawkings probably didn't reply because it's not his cat
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 10
@dBigMac: Thanks for the response and your offer!
Indeed there are a few additional questions I would like to ask you, about some specific circumstances that I faced. Not many, only the most important. I really would apreciate that, if you would find the time to answer my PM. But no need to hurry. It's late now after a long friday night and I will visit my bed first, before I am going to arrange them.
Sure. And the same goes for anyone else with questions...
Joined: Aug '08
Location: Belgium
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 157
I've always thought online poker isn't rigged, but now I'm seriously doubting if one of those sites is legit, played 8 sng's. wasn't playing to bad, had a decent stack in all of them instead 2 where I busted out really early because of stupid play. but in the other 6 right when the bubble is about the burst 5 times out of the remaining 6 I get AA in late position. in 1 someone insta pushes with pocket 44 utg, he hits his set. In 2 other of them utg raises 1.5 the blind, I insta shove to get the pot don't want to see the flop with my bad luck, get called jj twice they hit a set. about the similar story for the other ones but played different. I want to believe its just bad luck but this is just to sick, been playing along time now, I know bad beats happen but this downswing wich is lasting almost a month is just to much to handle. This week it truelly feels I'm being set up to lose all my chips/money I know it sounds like a rigtard but it really feels that way. the worst thing is it happens about 80% of the time just before the bubble. if its afterwards ok I get some winnings not much but still it beats getting busted always before bubble by hands like that.
edit: Aah well it wil just be bad luck, should know better then it being rigged. This downswing is just despressing
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by dBigMac: Sure. And the same goes for anyone else with questions...
I decided to make my questions to dBigMac public instead of doing a private mail, because there is nothing to hide from my point. Could be that some of you are already fed up with this discussion because you read these questions and theories already a thousand times. Who t.f. cares about? I have to earn Mobpoints for the next draw somehow...
-------------
Hello dBigMac!
Thanks again for taking the time, responding to my questions. Although my english should be better, as my profession is the aviation business, it could be that you´ll find some errors. Nevertheless I am going to keep my speach as simple as possible to make at least the basic sense of my points to some extent understandable.
I really enjoyed reading your article about the "doom switch". It is clearly written with well structured arguments, showing the knowledge base of the writer. Therefor it didn´t took me much time to understand that there´s an insider speaking. Since a while I asked myself if it would be a good idea in trying to get a professional into a discussion about my concerns, because my own investigations, that I am executing about over a year now, did not satisfy me at the end.
Well then, here are some statements and points that gave me some headache or at least made me think that some things in online poker could be "manipulated" or in an unfair manner to the players disadvantage. I ommitted questions about specific hands that I have lost, because I suppose they wouldn´t make any sense here and I cannot aprove with facts, if or when I got tricked. There´s just this specific odor making me wonder from time to time
1) I found out that it could be an ease to cheat at least at some rooms on the iPoker-Network, for a criminal group with enough members. I will not say "Poker-Mafia" but maybe my bullets aren´t that far away from the guns. It is possible to reach the exact same tables from different pokerrooms. For example could a "team" be registered at William Hill, Titan, Celeb, etc. and sitting at the same SitNGo table, entering different pokerrooms by several computer systems with independent IP´s and usernames. The advantage they have is to know the cards of each other, pushing odd calculation to a profitable but unfair level. Why do different iPoker-Rooms offer entrance into the same single SitnGoes and tourneys and what do they do, to prevent such a situation? I don´t want to believe that I should be the first person having this in mind.
2) Not only from my own experience but in addition from other users I realized that there is a tendency in stearing the cashflow that is on the line, between several players. I experienced that clearly at FullTilt and especially at PartyPoker (not long ago). Because I am a member of many poker rooms, I believe at least to have a medium overview how these sites act concerning this hypothesis.
3) The software engines of some rooms do have an "action tendency". Giving good starters and/or practically flops to many players to keep them in the game; to maximise the rake and get players to deposit again. As I stated in an earlier reply, my idea is, that this procedure could be independent from the basic shuffle algorithm. It is conceivable that this routine just makes the best out of the shuffled cards before they were dealt and although reaches such a goal on the long run. Who certifies what happens to the cards after they were shuffled and how they would be dealt to the players?
4) Aren´t there ways for someone (maybe employees if not hackers) to hang on into the data stream from the poker room servers, before it is transferred to the players? There is a curious clause in the FullTilt general terms of usage, saying that in some cases the results of the cards shown at the users client could differ from the initial cards given from their home servers and that in this case the initial sequence would count as basis for an accepted outcome of a game. Why do they need such a clause in their conditions? (Man, hope I got that right with my english...)
5) Why do poker sites allow the usage of handtracking and indicator tools? Especially such indicator software gives a huge and unfair advantage -> thread: "Razz with Studindicators"
6) There is a fellow offering an EBook on how to "crack" Pokerstars I´m sure it´s not allowed to post the link here, so I don´t do it. By reading the comercial for his EBook, I had to remind some curious situations that happened to me at the tables. Could it be true, that there is a way to filter winning patterns and synchronize the own play to the software?
I could ask you many more questions, wich are interesting to me. But I don´t want to stress your time too much with this and I´ve written enough for the moment. Hope they are not too stupid to be answered.
A good time and of course the best cards to all of you!
