Joined: Feb '08
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So it has been said that we are missing some poker talk in this forum. I find that hand histories in posts tend to be mainly about bad beats, whines, or asking 'what went wrong' so I thought I'd start a series of discussions about the hard decisions in poker.
Note that this hand didn't actually happen so there is no right or wrong answer. The idea is to have lots of different opinions.
Imagine you are playing in a cash game. The stakes aren't that important so let's just say that skill level is average to good. You are dealt 10c Jc in the CO (cutofff) and play is folded round to you. You raise to 3bb leaving yourself a stack with 80bb. Unfortunately the button who is an aggressive big stack raises to 8bb total. The small blind who has 40 bb quickly calls. The big blind eventually calls leaving his stack 64bb. This prices you in as it's 5bb more into a pot of 27bb. The flop comes 5h 6c 8c and it's checked round to you. What do you do? Do you bet and if so how much? Bearing in mind there is a big stack behind you who is quite aggressive (let's say you don't have much read on his hand range as he hasn't showed many hands).
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
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I would take a free card: as I know the aggro is behind me I would bet him with something more than a forth nuts flushdraw. Otherwise in this same hand If he raise first , I 3bet him for three reasons: 1) fold equity 2) to add value in the pot giving myself the possibility to valuebet in case of hitting the flush and built up a nice pot 3) to increase the probability to have a free card on turn (and maybe river as well) because there are good odds he will check the turn because of my action.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
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agree with magatt except for the re-raise part though, unless we hit our flush we are nowhere and even then we can lose. and if we hit our flush, fairly easy to trap the aggro then
and i think i'll be changing my seat/table next hand, dnt like aggro big stack on my left.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
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Well I am aggressive to, but he has position..I personally like to bet my draws so would normally bet 3/4 pot here, I don't know his range as yet , so have to fold to a 3-bet and wait for a better hand to bust him. I would have a feeling here that the blinds are looking to hit the aggro player too, so check see what he does and what they do first is probably the best solution. In short I need more info on the aggro player before attacking him with a draw and can not forget that he is not alone in this pot.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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One thing to consider, is with agro to our left, likely we're going to be check-raised otf if we bet it out.
Personally, I'm a nit so I'd take the free card. If we hit the flush, we're golden. No way someone super agro is going to check on the turn no matter what, especially 3-way with a big pot like that. So take the free card, if we hit we're golden, if we don't it's an easy fold.
I also agree 100% with not liking super agro to our left, even if we have position, it's annoying to play against them as you really have to re-assess your starting range. Though it is good in a way, as with position and a good hand, you'll easily get paid off
In a cash game that hand is a fold preflop. I was taught that a raise and reraise means I need AA or KK to call or shove. Any other hand gets me into a ton of trouble. I've saved myself lots of money following this model. This hand will be dominated by way too many other hands to be profitable in the long run. I may have the correct odds to call but I need to look at the hand realisticly with regards to my relative position...tough spot all way round.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
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I would bet at least 18BB's, im in a flush draw and table can even provide me something like an inside straight draw or something. Take in consideration that i will still have more than 55BB behind after this bet. This means that i dont know what am i going to do after this. If he puts me all-in, i will not go, that would be crazy, he can have better flush draw than me. If turn doesnt give me nothing, so next i wouldnt push it too hard, perhaps 20BB if earlier it was just a call...
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
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We can't take a free card, there is still a player acting behind us. But a check may still be the best play here. The aggro button will most likely bet, and we can see how the other players react. We have only a flush draw, so i would like to see more people in the pot to get the right odds here. If we bet the flop, the button raises and the two blind go out of the way, we are in trouble.
Joined: Feb '08
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I'm quite surprised that the consensus seems to be check. Whilst I admit I too would be looking not to get too involved with out a made hand, if this was a cash game and our bankroll management was right, we should really not be afraid of losing here when there is some potential to win a big pot. We actually have better odds here than AK with no other draws. And with such a flop there is not a lot for the big stack to represent since he raised preflop. If we check he is likely to c-bet and that doesn't give us the information we need.
However, I might be tempted to check as it is hard for us to represent a hand also. I think we would need to fold to a big enough raise but could potentially call a bet. We could also bluff the turn if the turn brings an action card. Remember the button is not an idiot just cos he is aggressive.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Posted by awood88: I'm quite surprised that the consensus seems to be check. Whilst I admit I too would be looking not to get too involved with out a made hand, if this was a cash game and our bankroll management was right, we should really not be afraid of losing here when there is some potential to win a big pot. We actually have better odds here than AK with no other draws. And with such a flop there is not a lot for the big stack to represent since he raised preflop. If we check he is likely to c-bet and that doesn't give us the information we need.
However, I might be tempted to check as it is hard for us to represent a hand also. I think we would need to fold to a big enough raise but could potentially call a bet. We could also bluff the turn if the turn brings an action card. Remember the button is not an idiot just cos he is aggressive.
Any more thoughts?
Bankroll management should in no way really affect the hand.
Ie: Just because we have say 50 BI, doesn't mean we should be playing crazy. The only reason BRM is ever a factor, is it allows you to play a hand the way it should be played.
That said, we should be looking at the hand from a +ev point of view. What will make us the most money, in the long run.
The way this scenario plays out is like this:
If we check, we get free card. This is very +ev for us, since if we hit a hand, we'll likely get paid off. We know villain won't check the turn, unless he has a really solid read on us somehow.
If we bet out otf, he's likely going to raise us. This puts us in a spot where we either have to shove overtop on a draw, which is likely marginally +ev/possibly breakeven depending on villains range. Our other option is to just call his raise, which again puts us in a bad spot.
OTF, as the hand is laid out we have approximately 9 outs, IF the flush gives us the nuts. We're basically 36% chance to hit by the river. Not factoring in running jacks, or 10s, or some off chance combo We need approximately 2.5 to 1 odds for it to be a profitable play. If the other person folds to our bet, and villain re-raises and we shove and he calls, we're basically even money, depending on just where we stand in the hand.
I think if we factor implied odds, it's profitable to just get stacks in otf, I think it's just as correct to check behind and take the free card.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted by retribution: Bankroll management should in no way really affect the hand.
Ie: Just because we have say 50 BI, doesn't mean we should be playing crazy. The only reason BRM is ever a factor, is it allows you to play a hand the way it should be played.
That said, we should be looking at the hand from a +ev point of view. What will make us the most money, in the long run.
If we check, we get free card. This is very +ev for us, since if we hit a hand, we'll likely get paid off. We know villain won't check the turn, unless he has a really solid read on us somehow.
This was precisely my point about brm. We shouldn't let the fact that we are against a big stack effect our play. We shouldn't be afraid of losing this hand. We should play it normal.
Checking doesn't necessarily get us a free card. The button is still to act. And I would argue we could have more control over pot size if we bet. i'm not saying this is definitely the case but i'm suggesting it.
Joined: Jan '11
Location: New Zealand
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....... that says it all really, poker is a game of skill and a game of luck even when you are playing the percentages, so if those icons don't say it all then these ones will when you have a good beat
Good/bad dunno, i do know both players are winning players and living from poker. 1 flopped Toppair and 3rd flushdraw other flopped nuts flushdraw, so trying to look in their mind they problably think they have both more then 50%, plus the fact foldequidity and guess we have a showdown. Difficult for me to judge cos i am not into cash, but at that stakes its extremely agressiv, just playing nitty 6handed its suicide and losing money longrun so its all about winning the hand by betting and let opponent fold rather then trying to hit and get paid off like the way we think.
Hmmm that is a somewhat interesting hand, player 1 had 56% equity in pot, player 2 had 44% otf.
Preflop player 2 actually had a slight edge, being 60% favorite to win the hand. Not terrible play by either player, somewhat agressive on player 2's part, having nothing but air and a draw.
I guess going back to the original scenario, my question is, why no-one was playing full stacked. I HATE short stackers at my table
