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Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
I just checked this hand in wiz,I used a 22.5% calling range for all opponents (tightest range possible that includes all pockets),it suggests to shove: 44+/A9+/A8s+
It can be slightly loosened up because it doesnt consider the negative edge we have being shortstack,but it's a pretty good range to start with
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by BeMyATMplz: I just checked this hand in wiz,I used a 22.5% calling range for all opponents (tightest range possible that includes all pockets),it suggests to shove: 44+/A9+/A8s+
It can be slightly loosened up because it doesnt consider the negative edge we have being shortstack,but it's a pretty good range to start with
Wiz is such a NIT
Btw guess its you playing with at a couple of PKR tables, phases that is?
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by BeMyATMplz: I just checked this hand in wiz,I used a 22.5% calling range for all opponents (tightest range possible that includes all pockets),it suggests to shove: 44+/A9+/A8s+
It can be slightly loosened up because it doesnt consider the negative edge we have being shortstack,but it's a pretty good range to start with
Wiz is such a NIT
Depends tbh in SNGs to calculate ICM it's not correct,or $EV mode in general doesnt consider future play,so when it calculates ICM situations we should always be slightly looser. This is an MTT so we have to calculate chipEV ,in these situations I like wiz alot,only problem is you have to put in the right calling ranges when I've put in just the stacksizes it suggested to shove stuff like nK8s there for example,however it also used calling ranges of only 5-8% which of course is b******t in a $2 MTT (Even in a highstakes MTT it would be more like 12-15%,depending on image tho),so yeah,wiz can be very misleading if you use the wrong ranges,but it can definitely help if you can range your opponents
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
I would shove. The antes are eating away at you, the blinds are heading your way and as a severe short stack anybody with two decent cards is going to try and be pushing you all in when you are bb or sb. After the blinds are through even with AA shoving your stack will be so small that a couple of people will call your all in with prospective hands and have a good chance to knock you out anyways. Do or die.
Speaking of shove, at a dinner last night with friends, one of the guys had the tshirt in the picture.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Doomdy and BeMy are spot on, its a push all day long. M is 7, but I think at 6man you can knock it down as the action tends to be looser and it is late MTT, Im sure harrington touches on that(late MTT Meffect) Anyway even at 7 you are on the edge, there is an argument for a fold, but its a last fold with Q=.76 and M dropping fast, id much rather go out shooting, Im going to shove. If I fold, I put myself in a situation were I have to play a worse hand or get lucky. The actual outcome of the hand is irrelevant, its about the correct play, but I still want to know if you got a caller.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
I still say fold. I'm not arrogant enough to say that everyone else is wrong and I'm right and I admit there is an argument for both but I think folding here is always the right option regardless of the result.
The way I see it there are two reasons why we push when we are short-stacked. The first is cos we have a good hand and don't mind being called . The second is cos we have a likely opportunity to steal the blinds.
I honestly don't think A10 is a hand we want to get called all-in with. Yes it's a 2$ buy in but we have to assume the table isn't completely clueless having got this far. Looking at everyone's stack sizes no one can afford to lightly call. Then again, it kinda depends on the read you have at the table. If people are calling loose then I take it all back.
I'm not saying you are never gonna get called by worse but your chances of getting called by a hand that dominates you are way too high and I'd rather shove with live cards if anything. But there are 5 people behind who could have anything and in my experience it's 50/50 whether someone will have something better. This is not a blind stealing opportunity.
So I agree with the op I'd rather shove late with 89. It is less risky to shove 12500 on the button with any two cards (not saying that this opportunity will present itself) and I agree with whoever said they would like to be in a race here but I don't think A10 is good for it. You'd never call an all-in with A10 in this spot.
Just my opinion so please don't thumbs me down for it as above.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
I gave you a thumbs up. Absolutely ridiculous to be given a thumbs down for stating your opinion, when that was the aim of the thread in the first place: request opinions of forum members for this hand which is not exactly cut and dried to begin with. Do you have an ex-girlfirend among the forum members?
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by awood88: I still say fold. I'm not arrogant enough to say that everyone else is wrong and I'm right and I admit there is an argument for both but I think folding here is always the right option regardless of the result.
The way I see it there are two reasons why we push when we are short-stacked. The first is cos we have a good hand and don't mind being called . The second is cos we have a likely opportunity to steal the blinds.
I honestly don't think A10 is a hand we want to get called all-in with. Yes it's a 2$ buy in but we have to assume the table isn't completely clueless having got this far. Looking at everyone's stack sizes no one can afford to lightly call. Then again, it kinda depends on the read you have at the table. If people are calling loose then I take it all back.
I'm not saying you are never gonna get called by worse but your chances of getting called by a hand that dominates you are way too high and I'd rather shove with live cards if anything. But there are 5 people behind who could have anything and in my experience it's 50/50 whether someone will have something better. This is not a blind stealing opportunity.
So I agree with the op I'd rather shove late with 89. It is less risky to shove 12500 on the button with any two cards (not saying that this opportunity will present itself) and I agree with whoever said they would like to be in a race here but I don't think A10 is good for it. You'd never call an all-in with A10 in this spot.
Just my opinion so please don't thumbs me down for it as above.
I dont give you thumbs down, but how many players you want to say ''shove all day'' Its so 100% standard. Maybe Ivey must say ''shove'' you believe him?
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by awood88: You'd never call an all-in with A10 in this spot.
That doesnt matter really. Your calling range always has to be tighter than your shoving range,thats a known fact. If you were HU,there are no blinds and you know your opponent shoves 100% of his hands/any2,you can only call profitably with your top 49.9% hands. The same applies here,while you may not call a shove with A10 here,simply because it doesnt beat enough of a normal shoving range,it is well within a reasonable shoving range.
You are also underestimating the deadmoney,including with antes. Many people do that mistake. They think straight-up in BBs,while forgetting about the antes. The best way is always to calculate your situation in M rather than BB,since there is a big difference between ante and pre ante play.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Posted by doomdy: I dont give you thumbs down, but how many players you want to say ''shove all day'' Its so 100% standard. Maybe Ivey must say ''shove'' you believe him?
Lol. It's not I don't believe you. I just make up my own mind and I'm willing to except I'm probably wrong. But I play poker the way it comes to me not the way everyone tells me. And standard play doesn't always make it the right play.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
You did well. You were behind in chips, and with a not too secure hand it would be better to try and grab it before others would also go for it. If you just have called it or raise you would prabably had at least one call and, if nothing suits you at the flop, you would be saying goodbye to that pot as well. This way was the best to fight for him. Don't know how it went but, even if you lost, it was the right move, taking in conisderation your phisic position at the table and also the chip rank.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Lets change it a bit, as we have no info, lets make up a little(player image) What if OP has shoved a few times previous and has a loose image, calling ranges just arent as tight as they used to be, can he fold then?
He folds, 13bb left, I dont think 13bb gets shoved on lightly and could even be used as a resteal stack against an opponent opening light.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by B1gfoot: Lets change it a bit, as we have no info, lets make up a little(player image) What if OP has shoved a few times previous and has a loose image, calling ranges just arent as tight as they used to be, can he fold then?
He folds, 13bb left, I dont think 13bb gets shoved on lightly and could even be used as a resteal stack against an opponent opening light.
Same hand with just a little tweak for thought.
Still shove,the wider their calling range is (over a point of ~ 15% calling range) the more we want to get called here,because we're in even better shape vs. their calling range
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
Awesome thanks to all the contributors on this one, I definitely learned a thing or two from this thread. I'm sure I'll end up searching a few things like M theory and a few of those acronyms. Proof I have lots more to learn pre- pro
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Ireland
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 476
Posted by Arithmajik: Awesome thanks to all the contributors on this one, I definitely learned a thing or two from this thread. I'm sure I'll end up searching a few things like M theory and a few of those acronyms. Proof I have lots more to learn pre- pro
im with you arithmajik,learning all the time,love going through these hand histories and getting everyones point of view
Posted by BeMyATMplz: Good shove,it should be bottom of your range tho. Guys,its a $2 tourney,people will spewcall with a lot of worse hands,not even to mention the deadmoney alone increasing our stack by 15%,ship all day.
Posted by awood88: . It's a hard spot and most people would see a decent hand and push here but experienced players know better.
So expirienced players like to get blinded down in MTTs instead of getting deep? Alright..
Exactly my way to think. Theres a lot of worst hands that can call, and maybe even be dominated by A-10, especially in 2$ tournaments. Also small and medium pocket pairs to race against. With the stack you had, you couldn't just fold A-10 as it's gonna be the best hand a fair pourcentage of the time, and IMO you have to defend it.
in SNGs to calculate ICM it's not correct,or $EV mode in general doesnt consider future play,so when it calculates ICM situations we should always be slightly looser.
to everyone here, a 
