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  16-Feb-12, 08:44   #1
I'm curious to see what people think of this hand. +1 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Villain was playing relatively tight last few orbits, and given the super short stack, I widened my shoving range a tad against the him because I figured I could steal a bit of chips before shortie busted out. Short stack must have been afk or something, because he was just blinding out. Anyways, really wonder what people think of this shove.

67139448 Level: 6 Blinds(300/600) - Thursday, February 16, 02:01:47 EST 2012
Table Turbo #2532786 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4/10
Seat 8: A3lal ( 210 )
Seat 1: GOLDENOFF ( 11,660 )
Seat 5: Maripo72 ( 4,380 )
Seat 2: hero ( 3,750 )
Trny: 67139448 Level: 6
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Th 8h ]
A3lal folds
GOLDENOFF folds
hero is all-In [3,450]
Maripo72 calls [3,150]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 4h, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
hero shows [ Th, 8h ]high card Ace.
Maripo72 shows [ 4s, 4d ]three of a kind, Fours.
Maripo72 wins 7,500 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, Fours.
hero finished in 4 place.

     
  16-Feb-12, 08:55   #2
  0 
MarcWinz 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 644
Hi retribution.

I think you should have waited. Obviously hindsight is a great thing. But you had 6 BB's and the short stack only had 3/4 of one. In that case you were guaranteed 3rd spot and you may have found better cards to shove with. One more round of blinds and you could have shoved and possibly had better cards to do it with. Also I think the "villian" would have been more reluctant to call? Especially, as he waould be thinking of 2nd place then.

Anyway as I say its easy with hindsight, but GL in the future.

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  16-Feb-12, 09:14   #3
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
Hi retribution.

My question is, why shove? If villain is playing so tight with a 2-2.5bb bet you can steal his blinds and easily fold vs a reraise. I can understand the shove if you have more stack than villain but no with less and a shortie 'out'.

     
  16-Feb-12, 11:55   #4
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
I don't mind your shove. Absolutely terrible call by villain - see it all the time though. small pp are excellent hands to shove when you're short - because you have FE and are often flipping if called, so generally - your equity is quite high. However - as a hand for calling allins, they are shithouse - you are flipping at best and sometimes dominated by a better PP.

So.. I don't mind your shove at all.. However, villains call is super bad, but also very common. A lot of people don't understand the difference between hands you should shove with and hands you should call with.

     
  16-Feb-12, 12:20   #5
  0 
Chartoule 
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1261
+1 to your coment, jessthehuman

     
  16-Feb-12, 13:00   #6
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
Read your explanation twice and still can’t understand why you decided to go all-in… A3lal would go away in next or other hand, then you would be only three, if it was when only three, your explanation would fit nice, taking in consideration the hand you had, but still with the shortie in game, can’t find a reason to do that.

     
  16-Feb-12, 13:27   #7
  0 
remilia 
Joined: Jun '11
Location: Romania
Age: 38 (F)
Posts: 19
Don't go all in vs fish..

     
  16-Feb-12, 13:49   #8
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2085
Normally I would say just like Jess, since you can steal those 600 chips pretty often with that move and you're rarely in terrible shape if you get called. But IMO when theres a tiny stack like that you should just wait, that A3lal guy had 1/3 of a BB... He was auto all in on next hand, right? Shock

     
  16-Feb-12, 14:23   #9
  0 
Serpang 
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 1476
What ever your analysis when bad luck come, you still lose. Smile even you have 97.5% chance to win. your opponent get it. Poker is instinct game ( MAYBE, lol Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile ). really BAD day for you Retri.
Good luck next time and don't forget tell to this forum Smile

     
  16-Feb-12, 15:10   #10
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Posted by jessthehuman:
I don't mind your shove. Absolutely terrible call by villain - see it all the time though. small pp are excellent hands to shove when you're short - because you have FE and are often flipping if called, so generally - your equity is quite high. However - as a hand for calling allins, they are shithouse - you are flipping at best and sometimes dominated by a better PP.

So.. I don't mind your shove at all.. However, villains call is super bad, but also very common. A lot of people don't understand the difference between hands you should shove with and hands you should call with.


This was my first thought. I absolutely hate it when my AK shove gets called by 33. There's no way you can justify that kind of call and yet I'm slightly behind.

But then I thought calling with 44 doesn't really fit the profile of the villain described by the OP. This makes me think that the villain was getting no opportunities and was getting increasingly frustrated and ready to push any hand. I'm guessing the op had raised his bb before and this time he wasn't giving up.

And even though I wouldn't advocate calling with a small pocket pair, if this was a cash game situation he would be justified in calling to flip as the big blind is already 1/6 of the pot. however, this is a tournament and the last thing you want to do is flip for your life down to the last 4. You should only look for a flip in an mtt if your tiny stack or if your way in front.

I won't say that the shove all-in is bad. It really depends if you're looking for first place I suppose. I think you need to consider your own image as well as the image other people have and consider that when playing short-handed peoples ranges seem to vary dramatically.

     
  16-Feb-12, 21:34   #11
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by awood88:
[QUOTE]Posted by jessthehuman:
I won't say that the shove all-in is bad. It really depends if you're looking for first place I suppose. I think you need to consider your own image as well as the image other people have and consider that when playing short-handed peoples ranges seem to vary dramatically.


Yeah, my thought process was, that we're all pretty much guaranteed a cash, so villain would need to have an extra strong hand to call with, given the equity he had he'd need to have a pretty strong hand to call. If he lost, he'd only have like 300 chips left, so he'd be in the exact same spot as the shorty AND they'd both be all in on the next hand as they'd both be posting blinds.

Between myself and bigstack, villain had folded his last 3 or 4 hands, so like it was stated, I guess he just got sick of waiting and called. SNG wiz suggest shoving 88+ and A10+ in my spot, but I really think given the situation we can be profitably shoving quite wide.

In retrospect I think it may have been a borderline bad shove on my part, but an absolutely TERRIBLE call on villains part.

     
  16-Feb-12, 21:51   #12
  0 
Indo36M 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: Netherlands
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 105
personly whit th-8h i would called,and iff the tight player did make a raise,and bcoz he played so
tight,i would think that he have at that moment a better hand then me,so i would folded,but i also
can imagen that u think that he again had nothing,but even then i would not go all in whit t 8 suited,but thats my opinion........

     
  17-Feb-12, 18:07   #13
  0 
doaga 
Joined: Jun '11
Location: Romania
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 66
Check/Fold

     
  17-Feb-12, 19:47   #14
  0 
sergiu23 

Joined: Sep '08
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 11
Posted by jessthehuman:
I don't mind your shove. Absolutely terrible call by villain - see it all the time though. small pp are excellent hands to shove when you're short - because you have FE and are often flipping if called, so generally - your equity is quite high. However - as a hand for calling allins, they are shithouse - you are flipping at best and sometimes dominated by a better PP.

So.. I don't mind your shove at all.. However, villains call is super bad, but also very common. A lot of people don't understand the difference between hands you should shove with and hands you should call with.

I totally agree with you. I wouldn't call that hand even if I had loads of chips and had to call a small amount.

     
  17-Feb-12, 21:46   #15
  0 
lupugol 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 24
Bad call Sleepy

     
  18-Feb-12, 02:10   #16
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by retribution:
Posted by awood88:
[QUOTE]Posted by jessthehuman:
I won't say that the shove all-in is bad. It really depends if you're looking for first place I suppose. I think you need to consider your own image as well as the image other people have and consider that when playing short-handed peoples ranges seem to vary dramatically.


Yeah, my thought process was, that we're all pretty much guaranteed a cash, so villain would need to have an extra strong hand to call with, given the equity he had he'd need to have a pretty strong hand to call. If he lost, he'd only have like 300 chips left, so he'd be in the exact same spot as the shorty AND they'd both be all in on the next hand as they'd both be posting blinds.

Between myself and bigstack, villain had folded his last 3 or 4 hands, so like it was stated, I guess he just got sick of waiting and called. SNG wiz suggest shoving 88+ and A10+ in my spot, but I really think given the situation we can be profitably shoving quite wide.

In retrospect I think it may have been a borderline bad shove on my part, but an absolutely TERRIBLE call on villains part.



It's easy to level yourself like that - and only after the hand / game you realise your opponent wasn't thinking (about equity) at all. Just clicking buttons. But before the hand you're thinking - wow, my shove on the bubble with shorty about to be blinded out will look uber strong, villain is going to need a top 5% to be able to make a call here, this is such a perfect spot to steal (and against a thinking opponent, you're right). So you do it - villain snap calls 44 and wins the flip and a moment later you're out wondering where it all went wrong.

     
  18-Feb-12, 03:02   #17
  0 
GomerAssassi 
Joined: Jul '11
Location: Canada
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 151
with the blinds at=3/6 hundred; i think a call would be your best bet. fold to a re-raise. and totally wait for the small stack to get blinded out.

patience young padawan.

haha.

I really dont understand the shove. ??? why??

personally a value bet looks stronger to me than a shove.

     
  18-Feb-12, 04:16   #18
  0 
H4Rm0Ny 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Portugal
Age: 33 (M)
Posts: 23
I personally usually go all-in in later stages of a tourney with a big pair im my hand.
Can't risk my chips trying to fish an A or a Q.
Anyway the pair of 4 wasn't a good call though. He just got lucky

     
  18-Feb-12, 04:44   #19
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by retribution:
Posted by awood88:
[QUOTE]Posted by jessthehuman:
I won't say that the shove all-in is bad. It really depends if you're looking for first place I suppose. I think you need to consider your own image as well as the image other people have and consider that when playing short-handed peoples ranges seem to vary dramatically.


Yeah, my thought process was, that we're all pretty much guaranteed a cash, so villain would need to have an extra strong hand to call with, given the equity he had he'd need to have a pretty strong hand to call. If he lost, he'd only have like 300 chips left, so he'd be in the exact same spot as the shorty AND they'd both be all in on the next hand as they'd both be posting blinds.

Between myself and bigstack, villain had folded his last 3 or 4 hands, so like it was stated, I guess he just got sick of waiting and called. SNG wiz suggest shoving 88+ and A10+ in my spot, but I really think given the situation we can be profitably shoving quite wide.

In retrospect I think it may have been a borderline bad shove on my part, but an absolutely TERRIBLE call on villains part.



It's easy to level yourself like that - and only after the hand / game you realise your opponent wasn't thinking (about equity) at all. Just clicking buttons. But before the hand you're thinking - wow, my shove on the bubble with shorty about to be blinded out will look uber strong, villain is going to need a top 5% to be able to make a call here, this is such a perfect spot to steal (and against a thinking opponent, you're right). So you do it - villain snap calls 44 and wins the flip and a moment later you're out wondering where it all went wrong.


Pretty much. I guess I need to adjust my play accordingly, as just because I think on that level doesn't mean my opponents do. Aww crap! I'm really at a loss as to just HOW to adjust though, as if I tighten my shoving range, I'm losing a lot of equity the times villain has trash. \

Suprisingly, I ran my hand through SNG wiz, and we're shoving AT+/88+ in that spot. I guess it was a bad shove on my part afterall.


     
  18-Feb-12, 09:28   #20
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2085
"I guess I need to adjust my play accordingly, as just because I think on that level doesn't mean my opponents do."

Exactly. This is something I realised a long time ago, and it's also the reason why I would've folded the hand. But that doesn't mean your shove was bad, it was only bad because the guy was a donk AND because you didn't hit after he called. Big Smile So many players don't even think, they just like to see cards. Blink I used to think other players think too, but I realised the hard way that against this kind of donks, any pocket pair or A9+ (or suited ace rags) can be good enough just because they like their hand. That's also the main reason why I prefer playing poker live. Respect is very important in poker, but on the internet, there isn't much of that. Even if you've been playing very tight, most people online don't even realise it or they just don't care. Playing a tight passive trapping style doesn't work much on the internet, but live I see this kind of players win pretty often.

Also, some beginners think that this hand must be played exactly like a heads-up hand because of the position, that's why they call almost any ace or PP. They might have seen the pros make this kind of calls on TV when they're short stacked, so they think it's right to do it, but they have no idea what the pro was thinking about when he made the call Big Smile

Edited by TheMachineQC (Saturday, February 18, 2012 @ 09:37 GMT)


     
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