Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
In a 100k depositor freeroll, last night. Pretty deep over 50k, roughly 150/300 left.
PokerStars Hand #80158773572: Tournament #554076271, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (1250/2500) - 2012/05/09 6:36:34 ET Table '554076271 545' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: 1VolkodavVDV (49026 in chips) Seat 2: blufalken777 (51123 in chips) Seat 3: Tyfron (29640 in chips) Seat 4: crovosos-100 (55265 in chips) Seat 5: Hoobs26 (24358 in chips) Seat 6: duplareppa (51390 in chips) Seat 7: *YA*32 (50435 in chips) Seat 8: bY2103 (36272 in chips) Seat 9: sadamman (51096 in chips) 1VolkodavVDV: posts the ante 500 blufalken777: posts the ante 500 Tyfron: posts the ante 500 crovosos-100: posts the ante 500 Hoobs26: posts the ante 500 duplareppa: posts the ante 500 *YA*32: posts the ante 500 bY2103: posts the ante 500 sadamman: posts the ante 500 sadamman: posts small blind 1250 1VolkodavVDV: posts big blind 2500 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to sadamman [Qs Qd] blufalken777: folds Tyfron: folds crovosos-100: raises 2500 to 5000 Hoobs26: raises 5000 to 10000 duplareppa: folds *YA*32: folds *YA*32 is sitting out bY2103: folds sadamman: raises 15000 to 25000 1VolkodavVDV: folds crovosos-100: raises 29765 to 54765 and is all-in Hoobs26: calls 13858 and is all-in sadamman: calls 25596 and is all-in Uncalled bet (4169) returned to crovosos-100
I will post the outcome, once I've read some of your thoughts....
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
First of all I don't think 20 bb is that deep. It's not bad for late in a tournament but it doesn't give you many options for really smart play. You are going to be facing a lot of variance and will need a certain amount of luck.
I think that you see QQ and you immediately smile. Already you are thinking about how much to raise to. Middle position min-raise doesn't look strong, if anything it's annoying with a small pair or junk and you should raise to show strength. However, when the next player raises you are getting too high for you to play preflop. You cannot raise to 25000. Sorry but that play is awful. Even if you recognise bad players and put both of them on nothing you can't put half your stack in with no certainty. You allow them odds to call and hit when there is little chance you will hit the flop and you don't get the equity of all-in. You shouldn't just call either as this puts a fifth of your stack in hoping for a low flop. So your choices are fold or shove. You may not think you can fold Qs preflop but try not to think of it as wasting a good hand but just waiting for better opportunities. On the other hand if you decide to shove you should be prepared for a call, which most likely leads to a race. Live cards in a caller are almost certain unless they are idiots who have lucked out this far. If you're prepared to gamble for a better chance at the tourney now is as good a time as any.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
It's not that big a stack, but big enough to last, and big enough to hurt anyone at that stage.
------------ Just want to say when I made that move, I was basically all in, there was no way I was folding. I was trying to scare the other person on 50k in to folding, (because I didn't think he was calling,) and put the other guy all in, (because I knew he would call.)
------------ Would just also like to say I didn't make the worst play of the hand, not even second worst.
Joined: Apr '12
Location: Argentina
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 78
I think that you played it correctly... Crovosos makes a simple raise, then Hoobs makes a reraise which is the only play he can make (or allin).
Your movement was correct, becouse you got a very good pair in your hand, and you may think that Hoobs is just bluffing. What makes me feel nervous is Crovosos allin, which may show a very strong hand or just another coin flipper with Ax. But, of course, you can't fold at that instance.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1646
yeah i defo think you should be shoving. even if they both fold its still a nice pot. but there is no way that second raiser is folding having put half he's stack in already so you just may aswell get your money in first.
i think by the sounds of it you got sucked out on. let us know soon
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Yeah, definitely a shove. UTG's raise to 5k and then a rep-pop to 10k puts the pot at 23k with the dead money. Raising to 25k only forces them to call another 20k and 10k respectively, so they're getting good odds to call. Basically since you're in the spot where you're 4 betting, you gotta come out bigger, say 3-5x. The initial raiser MAY be able to fold out more marginal hands, but the min-raiser already has half his stack committed, in a very inflated pot, so it's likely he's not going anywhere.
The min-reraise to 10k really has me nervous/curious. A MP raise MAY be a steal if he's that aggressive, but an immediate min-raise to me usually cries strength, especially when his relative stack is so small in proportion to the pot. Like I said before, he's definitely saying "I'm confident with my hand, and I'm commited to it".
I'm guessing MP had a mid PP or maybe Ax k10+, and the min-raiser had 10-10+/A10+.
So aside from perhaps the bet size, I think the hand is pretty standard. Only way I'd ever lay a monster like that down, is if it was in a VERY marginal ICM situatiion, but even then it'd be a VERY iffy fold.
If you ran into a monster or they sucked out, just consider it a cooler and walk it off
I think even if one of them had AA, they only have about 65% equity given it's 3-way.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
So basically I had every right to be in the hand it was just my original raise which was wrong. Thats what I thought, but I still didn't think it was an awful play.
Here's what happened...
*** FLOP *** [Kh 6c 5s] *** TURN *** [Kh 6c 5s] *** RIVER *** [Kh 6c 5s 6h] *** SHOW DOWN *** sadamman: shows [Qs Qd] (two pair, Kings and Queens) crovosos-100: shows [Ks Ah] (a full house, Kings full of Sixes) crovosos-100 collected 53476 from side pot Hoobs26: shows [Ad Ac] (two pair, Aces and Kings) crovosos-100 collected 78574 from main pot sadamman finished the tournament in 283rd place and received $0.93. Hoobs26 finished the tournament in 284th place and received $0.93. *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 132050 Main pot 78574. Side pot 53476. | Rake 0 Board [Kh 6c 5s 6h Kd] Seat 1: 1VolkodavVDV (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 2: blufalken777 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Tyfron folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: crovosos-100 showed [Ks Ah] and won (132050) with a full house, Kings full of Sixes Seat 5: Hoobs26 showed [Ad Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings Seat 6: duplareppa folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: *YA*32 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: bY2103 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: sadamman (small blind) showed [Qs Qd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Typical. Bad play from all of us in my opinion. I just thought this was interesting. My intuition was telling me to fold pre flop, but I seen UTG min raise then UTG+1 x2 raise him, and thought it was my moment. I knew I needed to have a moment because I wasn't in too comfortable a position, this just wasn't it. If I'm perfectly honest too, hoobs is platinum star and I wanted to take him out for his bad play. Which was ultimately what led me to make the bad half stack bet.
EDIT I thought I remembered them being UTG and UTG+1 with me mid/late position, but that's wrong
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1490
Yeah, I pretty much figured Hoobs would be showing up with a monster, it's the min-raise that gave it away. Pretty much was bang on with their hands, like I said just a cooler, defo the right play so don't fret too much about it.
FWIW even if hoobs aces had held, you still would have been ahead if AK hadn't sucked out, unless I'm doing the math wrong. Either way, very standard.
Joined: May '09
Location: Spain
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1331
I agree with you, sadamman. All of you do not play the hand in the best way. The 3 bet had an horrible size (and bang!! craked AA) and your move must be a push (pot is big enough to put our 20bb in table without same with our QQ).
Typical MTT hand. AA vs AK vs QQ. Sure one player fold KK, lol.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Posted by sadamman: It's not that big a stack, but big enough to last, and big enough to hurt anyone at that stage.
Exactly my point. All the more reason not to enter pots where you can lose a significant chunk.
Posted by sadamman: Would just also like to say I didn't make the worst play of the hand, not even second worst
I don't think you played it that bad apart from not shoving. As you've already said you could have got away from it if you followed your intuition and played it safe but you were more often than not racing or leading and gambling at this stage is pretty standard.
At first I thought the same as you, that the other two played their hands really bad, but then you gotta think the limper is so short-stacked that he is all-in in his mind and that the raiser can't raise to more than double without going all-in so they both got what they wanted by forcing you to shove. It's a difficult decision for everyone and the hand is a definite cooler.
You could still find plenty of reason to fold imo especially if you thought the bigger stack could fold. In an MTT you want to minimise risky situations unless you need to double up quick.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
If crovosos would have got his bad play out the way in the first place and shoved, I would have folded and went with my gut. I was playing well and my gut was on fire, I was dodging ridiculous s**t the whole game. If any thing this is a lesson to everyone, NEVER stray from your strategy, and ffs go with your gut. I'm not really bothered by it, like retribution said it was a cooler. But the only consolation is I can say with 99% certainty crovosos didn't win the tourney, if he carried on playing in that way.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 4827
I dont think crovosos-100 played bad in this hand. He was the strongest one, perhaps you were used to see him mini raising just to take the blinds, but in this case, with AK, it was a good way to move and to take some with him. With your hand, and after having two players raising pre-flop before you, you just had two options: either go all-in if you wanted to play that hand or fold if you thought you could lose to some Ace. If you decided to go, you would always be playing against both of them, because of their hands, so you would lose in the same.
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by Fakiry: If you decided to go, you would always be playing against both of them, because of their hands, so you would lose in the same.
I kind of agree but he had ak off, he shouldn't have played it, he had the worst hand, and because there was aa he was miles behind. He didn't know that but still, for half his stack or all of it, the ak needs to be suited in my books.
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 1875
I am not sure, all analysis is useful, cause action like that I often get it at late phase. Some player play gambling or what, too tired maybe so tactical bet not interesting anymore. Whatever you bet...Finally.... All in and luck decide it
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Its kind of like in big MTTs if you get deep the poker gods eventually say "are you playing well yeah? Here you go, lets see if your playing good enough." It doesn't matter what you've been through to achieve that stack. Its no limit hold em, one hand, one wrong move, you're gone. Every negative, I take it as a lesson. I've won similar tourneys before, I really wasn't playing well enough.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: Canada
Age: 62 (M)
Posts: 35
There was still lots of poker to play. I have a little different take on what most of the very experienced players have said here. In this situation, out of poisition and facing a raise-re-raise where it is pretty obvious that at least one is committed to the hand, inflating the pot only encourages, rather than discourages action. I would have left the aggression where it was rather than trying to take control with a 3rd raise on the 1st round and flat called.The A-K behind you would have likely just flat called as well and in all likelyhood this would have got you to the flop for 1/5 of your stack. Laying it down to the K-K post flop and watching the A-A get cracked on the river still leaves you with a scary enough stack to be respected.
For me it's not really a question of whether it was played bad. You had a strong starting hand and you made the decision at the start of the hand that you were prepared to risk all your chips on that hand pre-flop. You can't fault a gambler for stepping up and saying...okay I am ready to gamble. So once you made that decision, whether you get htere by shoving or by a series of bets, raises and re-reraises through the turn and river.....is irrelavant.
The payoff was big and would have likely vaulted you into the top 100...still...nice little cash though
