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  3-Jul-12, 12:21   #1
When you think someone is blind stealing 0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
..from with the CO or button or earlier in a SH MTT game and you hold say Ax (up to 7) do you shove all in?

I've been in this spot a good few times recently and I think it's where I'm losing the chance to make more FT's.

Often I've seen someone else shove and get called in this scenario and someone will be holding Q10s or something to that effect.

     
  3-Jul-12, 13:12   #2
  0 
schmoyster 
Joined: Jul '09
Location: Russian Federation
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 758
There is no universal strategy for this situation. Depends if it is cash game or tourney. What stakes? What are the stack sizes? What are the blinds? Any info on the opponent who, you think, steals your blinds?

You can't make a rule for yourself: if I have Ax (up to 7), I shove. You need to take a lot of factors in consideration in every given situation.

     
  3-Jul-12, 13:47   #3
  +1 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2126
Only shove if you think worse hands can call you, so it should be different for every opponent. It's all about what you think their range is at this particular point. And still if you get called by some kind of Q10s, you're only like 60/40, and that's pretty much the best case scenario...

There's no point in shoving A8o or less IMO since you're almost only gonna get called by pairs and aces with better kickers. Unless of course if you really think the guy is stealing or if you have a tight image. But still it's a pretty dangerous thing to do in a MTT, that's not the kind of spot you want to put your tournament life on unless you have to. Avoiding pre flop races is usually good in a MTT, you better rely on post flop skills to have an edge on your opponents.

Edited by TheMachineQC (Tuesday, July 03, 2012 @ 13:53 GMT)


     
  3-Jul-12, 14:23   #4
  0 
MIGO14 
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1235
This! I won´t do it, unless I have a very good read on the opponent.
And also this won´t help every time.
Yesterday I went out of a tourney with holding AK on BB. They guy who raised I defenitely know that he raises every kind of Aces.
So I pushed his raise and he called with 77 in hand and me hiiting nothing on the streets...

     
  3-Jul-12, 15:45   #5
  0 
ayaraled 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 544
if you think he is stealing, i think re-raise would be the best option because you can still fold if he moves all in with a strong hand...if he is stealing, he will fold with a re-raise...

     
  3-Jul-12, 15:46   #6
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
You don't need to shove. A 3/4 pot sized re-raise, once in a while will make him less likely to exploit your unwillingness to play back at him.

Also do some of the stealing yourself, when you're in late position, and it's folded to you. Since it's harder to defend, than to steal (being out of position and all).

     
  3-Jul-12, 16:04   #7
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 6197
I only shove when ICM says yes Thumbs Up

     
  3-Jul-12, 17:04   #8
  +2 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
As said above it depends very much on the situation. Stealing blinds with an attitude to just pick up blinds usually occurs in tourneys cos that's when you need to keep the chip count up. In cash games you want to play hands and win pots so players raise to catch cards. In a tourney if you are big stack and late in an unraised pot you 'might' and in some cases 'should' raise to take advantage of position literally with any two cards.

Similarly if you are really short, lets say 7bb on the CO (Not a position you'd normally allow yourself to be in but it happens) the button has 15bb, the sb has 11bb and the bb has 12bb, you should probably shove any two cards just to pick up those blinds. Since everyone is so short they can't afford to call lightly and you have a lot of fold equity. This won't get you out of trouble but it borrows you a little more time, increases your folding power and gives you more to double up with.

Some people steal the blinds too much. They feel that cos they haven't been raised by the button they should raise with K 5. IMO this is a bad idea since you will often get called by hands dominating you, in fact you could get called by any two if they think you are a blind stealer and this causes trouble reading them on the flop. However, you might wanna raise 10 J knowing that if you do get called you have position on the flop.

IMO people often defend their blinds too much. It's very easy to think as you do, that every late raise is a blind steal, and that if it's only two big blinds more you are priced in. But you really should fold any junk hands here including A4 A5 etc. If you shove you are only getting called by dominating hands and can only win a few blinds. If you call you have to play oop on the flop and what happens if an ace comes? You can't get value from an opponent who doesn't hit and they are likely to have you crushed if they do. If your tourney's on the line, you should fold unless you have a solid read or no other choice since there are better situations to make moves. Don't go broke for nothing.

     
  3-Jul-12, 17:19   #9
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by awood88:
As said above it depends very much on the situation. Stealing blinds with an attitude to just pick up blinds usually occurs in tourneys cos that's when you need to keep the chip count up. In cash games you want to play hands and win pots so players raise to catch cards. In a tourney if you are big stack and late in an unraised pot you 'might' and in some cases 'should' raise to take advantage of position literally with any two cards.

Similarly if you are really short, lets say 7bb on the CO (Not a position you'd normally allow yourself to be in but it happens) the button has 15bb, the sb has 11bb and the bb has 12bb, you should probably shove any two cards just to pick up those blinds. Since everyone is so short they can't afford to call lightly and you have a lot of fold equity. This won't get you out of trouble but it borrows you a little more time, increases your folding power and gives you more to double up with.

Some people steal the blinds too much. They feel that cos they haven't been raised by the button they should raise with K 5. IMO this is a bad idea since you will often get called by hands dominating you, in fact you could get called by any two if they think you are a blind stealer and this causes trouble reading them on the flop. However, you might wanna raise 10 J knowing that if you do get called you have position on the flop.

IMO people often defend their blinds too much. It's very easy to think as you do, that every late raise is a blind steal, and that if it's only two big blinds more you are priced in. But you really should fold any junk hands here including A4 A5 etc. If you shove you are only getting called by dominating hands and can only win a few blinds. If you call you have to play oop on the flop and what happens if an ace comes? You can't get value from an opponent who doesn't hit and they are likely to have you crushed if they do. If your tourney's on the line, you should fold unless you have a solid read or no other choice since there are better situations to make moves. Don't go broke for nothing.


Well thought out, and good advice.

Blind stealing and re-stealing/defending is one of the trickier aspects of poker. Your average player has absolutely NO clue what they are doing. I've found that most players either don't steal at all, or steal way too lightly. Converlsely, they also usually don't defend unless they have a monster. Usually in a CO/button steal, you're a lot more likely to see them flat you're raise, as opposed to 3-bet you. It's also funny how often you can shut down some-ones re-steal by 4-betting them.

Like someone already said, don't make yourself a "rule" that you MUST steal with XX hand, as there's a lot of factors that determine if you should be stealing or not. Stack size, opponents perceived ranges and their tendencies are just a few. Obviously if you see a weaker/passive player in the blinds, you're going to be able to steal wider than against someone who tends to be more aggressive.

     
  3-Jul-12, 18:38   #10
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
Posted by awood88:
As said above it depends very much on the situation. Stealing blinds with an attitude to just pick up blinds usually occurs in tourneys cos that's when you need to keep the chip count up. In cash games you want to play hands and win pots so players raise to catch cards. In a tourney if you are big stack and late in an unraised pot you 'might' and in some cases 'should' raise to take advantage of position literally with any two cards.

Similarly if you are really short, lets say 7bb on the CO (Not a position you'd normally allow yourself to be in but it happens) the button has 15bb, the sb has 11bb and the bb has 12bb, you should probably shove any two cards just to pick up those blinds. Since everyone is so short they can't afford to call lightly and you have a lot of fold equity. This won't get you out of trouble but it borrows you a little more time, increases your folding power and gives you more to double up with.

Some people steal the blinds too much. They feel that cos they haven't been raised by the button they should raise with K 5. IMO this is a bad idea since you will often get called by hands dominating you, in fact you could get called by any two if they think you are a blind stealer and this causes trouble reading them on the flop. However, you might wanna raise 10 J knowing that if you do get called you have position on the flop.

IMO people often defend their blinds too much. It's very easy to think as you do, that every late raise is a blind steal, and that if it's only two big blinds more you are priced in. But you really should fold any junk hands here including A4 A5 etc. If you shove you are only getting called by dominating hands and can only win a few blinds. If you call you have to play oop on the flop and what happens if an ace comes? You can't get value from an opponent who doesn't hit and they are likely to have you crushed if they do. If your tourney's on the line, you should fold unless you have a solid read or no other choice since there are better situations to make moves. Don't go broke for nothing.


Great advice and breakdown.

To be honest until I read about people always blind stealing and picking onn weak players I didn't do it unless I felt like making a play every now and again.

And sometimes when I've played a cash game or even tourney (more so in cash) I have found myself thinking, "oh dam, need to keep stealing blinds and defend my blinds".

But in actual fact in a cash game the blinds never go up - so a steal every 5 circuits (on a 6-Ring cash game) breaks you even, that equates to one steal per 30 hands!! ( I'm kind of thinking this through as I type). And if there are weaker players, 2 steals from 30 hands is nothing, it's easy.

In a tourney ICM obviously plays a part, a large part, and you have to constantly adjust throughout, so it's much tougher to read and time a steal vs in a cash game.then antes change things again.

I think sometimes I started to get a little obsessed with defending blinds. And it's easy to then start to think that anyone who raises on your blind repeatedly is stealing.

I need to just play my game like I used to - instead of getting caught up and overconcerned with defending/ stealing blinds that way I can focus on my game.

     
  3-Jul-12, 18:57   #11
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8648
when the rest of the table until the button folds and the guy in the button makes the same raise 24 times in a row, i begin to think that i am being robbed here, but then again i might be wrong, maybe he is just being dealt "american airlines" all the time Smile after 24 times i ask politely:"are you stealing blinds?", and if the answer is no, then i believe him Big Smile

     
  3-Jul-12, 20:02   #12
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
I've been in this situation before on cash games, not sng or mtt and always a 3-bet was the solution Blink

IF he does this pretty often i think it's pretty unsafe to shove with a weak hand.

     
  3-Jul-12, 21:02   #13
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
Can't stand when the same player steals in the same position as the blinds go around the table. This is when I sit and wait for the hand to come . It may take a bit , but if your patient it generally comes and I just limp in enough to keep in it, no raises. There's times it fails and times one gets moved before the opportunity allows the challenge.

Everyone has their own texchniques or ways. I also fold away a lot of my blinds so don't think I try to play them with nothing. Especially my SB. I'm not going to lose double to take a chance on hitting the flop. Just fold and go on!

     
  3-Jul-12, 21:53   #14
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4873
awood gives some really sound advice. You also have to consider every players relative stacks and playing style before you make the approach to steal. Sometimes you can come undone, but dependant on the stack situation, it can be very profitable and keep your tourney life going.

     
  4-Jul-12, 00:26   #15
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
some pretty good stuff been said already - my own 2 cents.

(this is all assuming I am short stack (<20bb)

If I'm in big blind and it folds to sb and we're both short stack - I'll call any ace, any 2 paint cards and depending how frequently they've been doing it, I'll call some random suited Ks (K9s etc)

If it's from Button/Co - an I'm in the blinds- my calling range is pretty tight, not too tight, but more like KQs+, A9s+, A10o+,88+

If their raise doesn't put me allin then I'll res-hove a LOT of hands, depending how often they're doing it, or if their bet size suddenly changes (sometimes people make their steals really large compared to their value raises) - If I think I have fold equity vs the particular person - I'll re-shove

22+. 78s+, 10Jos+, JQs+, K10s+, AXo+, Axs+

     
  4-Jul-12, 04:53   #16
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
Posted by jessthehuman:
some pretty good stuff been said already - my own 2 cents.

(this is all assuming I am short stack (<20bb)

If I'm in big blind and it folds to sb and we're both short stack - I'll call any ace, any 2 paint cards and depending how frequently they've been doing it, I'll call some random suited Ks (K9s etc)

If it's from Button/Co - an I'm in the blinds- my calling range is pretty tight, not too tight, but more like KQs+, A9s+, A10o+,88+

If their raise doesn't put me allin then I'll res-hove a LOT of hands, depending how often they're doing it, or if their bet size suddenly changes (sometimes people make their steals really large compared to their value raises) - If I think I have fold equity vs the particular person - I'll re-shove

22+. 78s+, 10Jos+, JQs+, K10s+, AXo+, Axs+


Solid ranges. Probably almost on par with what a normal 3-bet re-steal range would be if you're deeper stacked.

You've got a good point with the bet sizes as well. Usually depending on relative blinds, people tend to steal with larger bets, opposed to using smaller bets when they actually have a hand. This is a pretty good tell right here, as the vast majority of players tend to do this. It's almost the same as when they limp or min-raise UTG and then 4-bet when someone repops pre Smile

     
  4-Jul-12, 05:37   #17
  0 
Mysik86 

Joined: Nov '11
Location: Poland
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 773
Posted by noonlion:
..from with the CO or button or earlier in a SH MTT game and you hold say Ax (up to 7) do you shove all in?


Like someone said - it depend on factors...
In freerolls there are so many weak fish players who all-in almost every hand... and when I sometimes checked them with pretty good cards, many many times cards in flop are great for them...

Eg.

Fish is all-in
Me is call (with good card)

Fish cards: 68
Mine: QK

Flop is like 68T
Turn is K
River is 6 or 8...

And I lose!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Angry Angry Angry

     
  4-Jul-12, 11:00   #18
  0 
noonlion 

Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1277
I find on the cash games if there's a tonne of calling stations you can forget about blind stealing and defending - it's a technique above their heads they don't understand.

the only way you'll take their money is by going into pots with solid holdings and playing position BIG TIME - this happened to me yesterday in my last session. This player just kept calling any raise, or limped every single hand - when i had decent hands I played them and just kept missing the flop and turn like 6x in a row.

Tried a bluff or two, no joy.

And after that they hit me with AA vs KK, then they got KK twice more in the space of 20 hands, one of which I managed to binkout on the river with 2 pair. But mega frustrating - lesson is, don't enter the pot with marginal hands like A8o before them.
Aww crap!

     
  4-Jul-12, 11:14   #19
  0 
sadamman 

Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by retribution:
Usually depending on relative blinds, people tend to steal with larger bets, opposed to using smaller bets when they actually have a hand. This is a pretty good tell right here, as the vast majority of players tend to do this. It's almost the same as when they limp or min-raise UTG and then 4-bet when someone repops pre Smile


True that, but that's why I do the exact opposite. You can overthink and try to preempt things all you want, but if you lose on a good hand doing this, you're the only one to blame. Represent what you're holding and if they're stupid enough to call a bet that represents a biggy, so be it. You can always shut down if your spidey sense is tingling. If they 3 bet your average bet with a borderline hand when you're trying to steal, fold, simple as. Better to have a small piece of something than a big piece of nothing. Even if you've got a big hand and push comes to shove (pun intended) so be it, if you're ahead good, if you're behind, ah well, that's just the way it is.

     
  4-Jul-12, 12:26   #20
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
It’s not easy to find out something like that playing online. Either the player does that often and we tend to know him for that, or else we will be taking a shot in the dark, calling someone just for having that feeling. Personally, i only do it when i have more chips than the robber. Think about when there are only 3 or 4 at the table: At that time, many Ax will try to steal the blinds, but having only 4 players at the table, that can also be one of the best hands in the game.

     
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