Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by awood88:
Posted by sadamman: But even 7 2 has its day.
Yes if you play any hand enough times it will win. But the wins will probably be small.
Statistically you will also get a lot of bad beats and cold hands with 7 2. It's very easily out-drawn.
Forget the maths if you like. Forget ev blah-blah. If you could count how many chips you've lost playing 6 2, 7 3, 8 4, 9 5, 7 2, 8 3 etc you'd see that this win barely makes a dent in the debt these hands owe you. If you didn't win with them occasionally you'd be in real trouble.
This is an excellent point. If you genuinely believe you have the post-flop skills to dominate IP with ATC - then it would be worth running a large sample of hands through a HH program (HEM/PTR) and actually see whether you're making a profit IP calling raises with junk or not.
I'm not saying it's not possible to do it - but the majority of the profit from playing complete junk like 8,4 doesn't come from hitting monster flops etc, it comes from being good at stealing pots. There is no way you hit good hands enough to make it profitable otherwise.
I so often see people hit with crap (with or without any implied odds) and go on to tell me how I am an ABC donkey and this is how the pros do it etc.. Except it's not - the whole point of playing ATC IP is to out-play your opponents, not donk some monster flop with s**t every now and again.
I'm not saying you aren't profitable - but just illustrating that this particular hand isn't an example of how to make hands like 8,4 profitable, this is just an example of calling a raise with crap and getting lucky vs a moron.
------------ EDIT: FWIW; Poker math dictates that even with suited connectors and small-medium-PPs you don't actually flop made hands or good draws often enough for them to be profitable. The only way to make a (large sample) profit with small-mediumPPs and SC is to steal a fair % of the time. Which means you need to understand post flop play enough to be able to pick the right spots to maximize FE with minimum risk.
and FYI: It's almost impossible to profit(large sample) OOP from raggy hands like small-mediumPPS, Suited pictures like K8s, Q10s, etc), SCs 45-JQ, all of those marginal hands. Basically the only way you'll see a Pos EV with anything other than premium hands OOP is if you absolutely dominate Post Flop.
I see idiots call raises from the blinds (because they've already committed 1bb or even just a sb), limp hands like 78s UTG, etc - none of this is profitable unless you're a post-flop genius.
Edited by jessthehuman (30 August 2012 @ 02:16 GMT)
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Yeah I maybe should and it probably would be worth it but I'm not too keen on poker gadgets like trackers etc and money wise things aren't too good for me atm so I can't afford to buy one really either way. It's not a common thing me making plays like this I just know it does happen so theres a possibility I've got anything. Yeah I will also bet at nothing trying to steal. Some tourneys I've actually won from steals with nothing all the way til the end then final table I start getting called but just keep hitting. But at the same time I do also go on tilt when people trap me and I do completely misread the situation at times so I've by no means pefected it. I just think LAG is the most profitable way of playing if you have the discipline.
Posted by grahamy27: this is just ridiculous play by a muppet who then trys to justify it by claiming he was big stack! also how did you know he didnt have 2 pair or trips??
people say but its ok my hand was strong only because it won...but if it lost you would have been shoutin all sorts.. imo its people like you who muck up online poker for people who actually want to play the game instead of gambling on any 2 cards..
think you should really download yourself a starting hands chart..might improve your game a bit!!
Joined: Jan '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 1204
Posted by fcumred:
Posted by grahamy27: this is just ridiculous play by a muppet who then trys to justify it by claiming he was big stack! also how did you know he didnt have 2 pair or trips??
people say but its ok my hand was strong only because it won...but if it lost you would have been shoutin all sorts.. imo its people like you who muck up online poker for people who actually want to play the game instead of gambling on any 2 cards..
think you should really download yourself a starting hands chart..might improve your game a bit!!
spot on...
Yes if you were to go by odds alone, he could of and maybe should have beat me. I don't do this often. But I will do it when I think the time is right. Wheter its the right time or not when I actually call on this hand is another matter. But I can take it. Like I say all too often its a knife edge between genius and idiocy. He was completely outclassed here. But it more than likely would have been him outclassing me if you were to go by preflop odds. Maybe he should have won?
