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A full house can never be the nuts
 

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  16-Sep-12, 13:16   #1
True or false 0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Day 25 Poll 25

True or false: A full house can never be the nuts.

It would be good for this one if you could think about it, then vote in the poll and then read the comments.

     
  16-Sep-12, 13:26   #2
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
According to wikipedia: "In poker, the nut hand, is the strongest possible hand in a given situation."

So I vote for "False" (i.e. it can be the nuts), because this definition allows for split pots.

     
  16-Sep-12, 13:39   #3
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
I just spent a few minutes looking for definitions of the nuts and pages donated to working out the nuts. None that I can find mentions the fact that two people can have the nuts at the same time. Although they do cover the fact that the nuts is determined by your hole cards and you can't have the same card twice they don't talk about how the nuts can be a split pot as in the example where you both have an ace and there is 4 of the kind on the board.

     
  16-Sep-12, 13:52   #4
  0 
rmoller 
Joined: Dec '11
Location: Belgium
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 18
this question makes my brain hurt Sad

     
  16-Sep-12, 13:52   #5
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
The statement is false.

On a board reading Ah Ac 10h 9h 8d for example....

The nuts can be either Ad As.... for 4 of a kind, or A 10 for the full house...

Definition of 'the nuts' - Can't be beaten. In the old wild west, cowboys would literally bet 'the nuts and bolts' from their wagon. As they couldn't possibly get by without them... anyone 'betting the nuts' would be assumed to have the best possible holding.

...I'm not sure exactly how true that story is - but it is a story that's gone around a bit.

     
  16-Sep-12, 13:56   #6
  0 
EnyaMaus 
Joined: Sep '08
Location: Germany
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 6
Board: AAK92

AK is nuts since no better hands possible - so the statement is false Blink

Lots of bla bla but you didnt answer the Q, yout85...

Edited by EnyaMaus (Sunday, September 16, 2012 @ 14:00 GMT)


     
  16-Sep-12, 14:26   #7
  -1 
Doarulle 
Joined: Sep '12
Location: Romania
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1052
Remember the Enrique Iglesias video ?
7500/15000 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)


Hero: A Spade A Club [1.500.000chips]
Enrique : Q Spade Q Diamond [1.600.000chips]

Hero bet 100.000 chips
Enrique pay 100.000 chips

Flop : Q Heart 9 Club A Heart

Hero bet 200.000 chips
Enrique pay 200.000 chips

Turn : 7 Spade

Hero bet 300.000 chips
Enrique pay 300.000 chips

River : Q Club

Hero goes ALL-IN 900.000 chips
Enrique fold and take the 5th queen [A beautiful girl]

So, the full is not the nuts, board counts Big Smile

     
  16-Sep-12, 14:46   #8
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
Errrrrrrr... EnyaMaus

"The statement is false"

....Can't be any clearer than that Smile

     
  16-Sep-12, 14:49   #9
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Posted by yout85:
The statement is false.

On a board reading Ah Ac 10h 9h 8d for example....

The nuts can be either Ad As.... for 4 of a kind, or A 10 for the full house...

Definition of 'the nuts' - Can't be beaten. In the old wild west, cowboys would literally bet 'the nuts and bolts' from their wagon. As they couldn't possibly get by without them... anyone 'betting the nuts' would be assumed to have the best possible holding.

...I'm not sure exactly how true that story is - but it is a story that's gone around a bit.


You are 100% correct of course. A full house can be the nuts if and only if the board is paired with no higher cards than the pair on the board and there is no chance of a straight flush. However it can never be anything other than the "split nuts" meaning although you cannot lose you are not guaranteed to have a better hand than everyone else. In your example another player could also have A10.

Wikipedia notes the difference between the "actual nut hand" and the "absolute nut hand". The best hand possible on any paired board with no straight flush possible is always four of a kind until you factor in hole cards. Then if you have a hole card that matches the board pair you know a full house is the nuts. However, having a fh that includes one of these cards is no guarantee you have the nuts.

For example if the board was Ac 10c 9s 9d 2c... As 9c is not the nuts since it can be beaten by pocket 10s or pocket A but pocket A is not the nuts since it can be beaten by pocket 9s. But if the board is Jc Js 9d 5c 4s... Jd 9s is the nuts since there is no higher full house although Jh 9c is equally the nuts.

     
  16-Sep-12, 15:02   #10
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
Was late for the question as far as leaving an answer prior to reading the final, but always learning something here in the BRM forum. I guess that's what really counts! Good Luck All!

     
  16-Sep-12, 15:48   #11
  0 
erru9107 
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 910
This is a really interesting question. Sure it can be the nuts since the definition is that there isn't any hand that can beat you. But still there is the posibility of a split pot so I'm not sure at all what the right answer should be.

     
  16-Sep-12, 22:25   #12
  0 
EnyaMaus 
Joined: Sep '08
Location: Germany
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 6
Posted by yout85:
Errrrrrrr... EnyaMaus

"The statement is false"

....Can't be any clearer than that Smile


You still dont get me...your explanation of WHY the statement is false, totally failed Big Smile

     
  16-Sep-12, 23:15   #13
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by EnyaMaus:
Posted by yout85:
Errrrrrrr... EnyaMaus

"The statement is false"

....Can't be any clearer than that Smile


You still dont get me...your explanation of WHY the statement is false, totally failed Big Smile

How so? He provided an example of a FH that is the nuts.

Moreover, he provided an etymological explanation, which I found amusing... Thumbs Up

     
  16-Sep-12, 23:27   #14
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Bit late in the conversation, but yes - in the general sense that you can be confident there is no better hand. But splits are always possible of course.

     
  17-Sep-12, 06:03   #15
  0 
retribution 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 1490
A little late to answer the question, although I knew the answer anyways.

A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?

     
  17-Sep-12, 06:39   #16
  0 
MarcWinz 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 644
Posted by retribution:
A little late to answer the question, although I knew the answer anyways.

A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?



Yes - You hold Ah, Kh and flop is Qh, Jh, 10h - Royal flush and I have seen this on FT many moons ago. GL to you all.................

Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

     
  17-Sep-12, 06:51   #17
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
edit: ^damn beat me to it! Easy question any way.

Posted by retribution:
A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?


Yes definitely. Hands like a royal flush (in any community card variation of poker) cannot be out-drawn and cannot be equalled. The upper two cards of a straight flush also could not be out-drawn (for example holding 8h,9h on a 5h,6h,7h board).

It's extremely difficult to flop absolute nuts without a straight flush, although it *can* be done with quads- so long as your hole cards serve as blockers to a straight flush draw.

edit again: Now that I think about it - I don't think it *can* be done without a straight flush, the only quads you can flop that can't be beat by better quads is with quad aces and holding AA means you can't effectively block a straight flush draw and like wise if you hold AX on an AAA flop then you aren't blocking all the possible RFs.

So I think you can only flop the absolute nuts if you flop a SF (either upper end of a regular one, or a RF).

Edited by jessthehuman (Monday, September 17, 2012 @ 06:56 GMT)


     
  17-Sep-12, 09:22   #18
  0 
Doarulle 
Joined: Sep '12
Location: Romania
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1052
Posted by retribution:
A little late to answer the question, although I knew the answer anyways.

A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?

Of course you can have a nuts on the flop : you need a royal flush or a straight flush or quads, even full house can be nuts: in this case full house must be something like : AK and flop AAK Blink

     
  17-Sep-12, 09:37   #19
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by Doarulle:
Posted by retribution:
A little late to answer the question, although I knew the answer anyways.

A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?

Of course you can have a nuts on the flop : you need a royal flush or a straight flush or quads, even full house can be nuts: in this case full house must be something like : AK and flop AAK Blink


100% for sure you CANNOT flop the absolute nuts with only a full-house. And as I wrote above, now that I think about it I am fairly certain you can't flop the absolute nuts with quads, can you please provide an example of how you can? Thanks !

     
  17-Sep-12, 10:14   #20
  0 
Doarulle 
Joined: Sep '12
Location: Romania
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1052
Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by Doarulle:
Posted by retribution:
A little late to answer the question, although I knew the answer anyways.

A new brain buster, is it ever possible to have the absolute nuts on the flop?

Of course you can have a nuts on the flop : you need a royal flush or a straight flush or quads, even full house can be nuts: in this case full house must be something like : AK and flop AAK Blink


100% for sure you CANNOT flop the absolute nuts with only a full-house. And as I wrote above, now that I think about it I am fairly certain you can't flop the absolute nuts with quads, can you please provide an example of how you can? Thanks !


Example of full house nuts on flop
AK flop AAK / KKA Rainbow = 99.99% nuts, just if the adversar have QJ/QT/JT suited in that case runner runner can beat you
AQ flop AAQ RAINBOW = ALMOST NUTS BECAUSE ANY AK WITH A TURN OR RIVER K BEAT YOU
AQ flop QQA RAINBOW= ALMOST NUTS BECAUSE ANY AK WITH RUNNER-RUNNER K K CAN BEAT YOU
AJ flop JJA
AT flop TTA
A9 flop 99A
A8 flop 88A
A7 flop 77A ALMOST NUTS BECAUSE ANY RUNNER RUNNER HIGHER THAN YOUR FULL BEAT
A6 flop 66A / YOU, AJ-JJA = beat by AQ/AK - JJA - TURN Q RIVER Q or TURN K RIVER K
A5 flop 55A / ALSO ANY PAIR WITH RUNNER RUNNER BEAT YOU
A4 flop 44A /
A3 flop 33A /
A2 flop 22A /

AJ AT A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3 A2 with flop AAx never nuts because any AK or AQ or any Ax(x higher than your kicker) with a turn or river of Q or K or higher than your kicker will beat you Aww crap!

Example of nuts quads on flop
AA flop AAx
KK flop KKx (x≠A) is almost nuts just in case adversar have AA and runner-runner AA
For QQ and other pair lower to 22 rule is simple
Example : QQ flop QQx, you need to see the turn without any card higher than your Q, adversar can have AA or KK and if the flop is QQK or QQA, you can lose if the turn or river double a K or A
If the flop is QQx (x≠A or K) and if the turn is any x(x≠A or K) you are the nuts.

I hope someone read this and understand my madness Big Smile

In conclusion: after i've tipe this madness i saw there's no full house nuts on the flop Agree

≠ is =/= i mean false

Waiting for replies Worship

Edited by Doarulle (Monday, September 17, 2012 @ 10:38 GMT)


     
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