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Could you outplay a bot programmed to beat you HU?
 

  29-Sep-12, 20:56   #1
Do you think you can outplay a bot? 0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Bots do exist on online poker even if the sites do try to find and remove them. But I've been told that bots do not have bigger ROI per 1000 hands than most winning players. They are immensely difficult to program and if successful usually make money by grinding bonuses and playing maths centered poker on cash tables. They cannot make the complex decisions the human mind can, taking into consideration character, table chat, unusual behaviour, special circumstances or instinct. They can however process decisions quicker, calculate odds accurately and simultaneously use numerous stats and information against you if they are programmed to do this. But even if an expert computer nerd built a bot specially for winning a tournament filled with pros, it wouldn't be unbeatable if you knew how to outplay it by making moves it's not prepared for.

     
  29-Sep-12, 22:46   #2
  0 
Redvulture61 
Joined: Jan '12
Location: Australia
Age: 23 (M)
Posts: 155
There is a bot that is very hard to beat that has been made for limit holdem heads up. As far as i know, bots make fucking s**t poker players and make very little money if any. Bots can only play by the maths they cant analyse situations and game dynamics like humans can.

     
  29-Sep-12, 22:53   #3
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
I've wondered about this question myself, often.

On the one hand, poker is an incredibly simple game; I sometimes jest that poker is the most one-dimensional game I know, since it is literally one-dimensional (the only variable being the size of your bet).

On the other hand, the problem of pattern recognition; trying to figure out what your opponent is doing, and counteracting with the appropriate strategy, is incredibly difficult, since a human is a bit of a chaotic system.

Sure it's not that hard, to program a bot that can play perfect ICM, or any other strategy, but would that be enough to beat everyone? Once you catch on to this, it's easily exploited.

Ultimately I believe that there will be a program that can win more often than any human player, but it would surprise me to see this anytime soon. Although it's certainly interesting, I don't think I'll attempt to write one. Besides, what would you do with it? There's no place you'd be allowed to use it.

     
  29-Sep-12, 23:40   #4
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
...Creating a 'bot' is not actually as difficult as you might think.

I once created a push/fold bot, which I left running for hours on play money tables to research pushing ranges.... it took me a few days to teach myself the computer lingo side of it, nothing more.

It made profits of around 2million chips a day (playing on stars zoom, 4 tables at once (which is no longer possible)). The fact it was on zoom, meant people don't really pick up on things.... but going back to the question.... it was soooooo easy to beat. It open shoved any pair Jacks or higher, and AK and AQ... folded everything else. It benefited from donk calls... but would have been owned on real money BECAUSE it follows certain rules.

Figure it out.... and it's easily beatable.

I don't doubt that someone more computer savvy than me could do a much more thorough bot... so I guess the answer is "It depends how good the bot is".

     
  30-Sep-12, 00:22   #5
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
I couldn't even answer this honestly since I'm not familiar with one nor a bot's capabilities. I would like to have the opportunity to play a bot and evaluate how they respond to various hands or playing styles. meaning would it be a challenge to compete with a bot playing various ways over a period of time.

     
  30-Sep-12, 01:33   #6
  0 
yout85 
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 2016
mohave.... basically, you can tell it how to play certain hands in certain situations.... but it will ALWAYS do the same given the same conditions... no variety = easily sussable...

     
  30-Sep-12, 11:47   #7
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8648
good question- it depends, probably in limit holdem bots have an advantage over humans just because they don't tilt- and limit holdem is always a math game, so only tilt factor is the real weakness of any human player. in nl- not sure bots are too predictable imo, but they are beatable- since in nl there is more than just skill, luck, factor of stupidity etc.

     
  30-Sep-12, 11:49   #8
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Posted by yout85:
mohave.... basically, you can tell it how to play certain hands in certain situations.... but it will ALWAYS do the same given the same conditions... no variety = easily sussable...

How so? You could just as easily attach percentages to decisions. Most strategies tell you to call/raise/fold a percentage of the time, in the various situations. So to adhere to this strategy you would need to program your bot accordingly...

     
  30-Sep-12, 12:00   #9
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10045
If someone can recognize a bot and the pattern that is using, probably it wont be hard
to beat it. The only thing you will have to do is adjust your game according to the pattern.

     
  30-Sep-12, 14:29   #10
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by yout85:

... so I guess the answer is "It depends how good the bot is".


THIS answer and only this answer is correct. All bots are not created equal and figuring out their "patterns" may not be such a simple thing if they're expertly created.

When thinking about river-shoving polarised ranges for example, they *should* in theory be programmed to randomly shove X% of bluffs vs X% of nut-hands. If they're well programmed, they should be relatively un-exploitable.

     
  30-Sep-12, 15:18   #11
  0 
WinAllDay 
Joined: Sep '11
Location: Canada
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 173
I believe the Aria room in vegs has a head up limit holdem bot where a player can play the computer. If a brick and mortar casino is supporting bots playing poker than they must be really hard to beat.

the biggest thing is the game format. I believe limit games are a lot more calculations as opposed to gut/reads/patterns. since you can calculate so much in limit it makes sense that a bot can beat the game since it's calculations will never be off.

as for beating a bot. I think it may be harder than beating a person because it doesn't make math mistakes (let that be a lesson to all the feel players) although making reads on a bot should be a lot easier because it is programmed to treat situations exactly the same way each time it gets that situation.

thats just my opinion. ive noticed some bots on ipoker networks and their F3Bet is around 90% so i 3 bet lightly (even with 2-7 once) when HU in pots with bots.

     
  30-Sep-12, 15:59   #12
  0 
Doarulle 
Joined: Sep '12
Location: Romania
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 1052
I've played against the bot on the Full tilt poker ;x remember because i've played 20 hu and i lose all of them ... any pair against his Ace and any card, he won... any AK, AQ, AJ, AT against his 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99 i losed Aww crap!

     
  30-Sep-12, 17:49   #13
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4873
It depends on how the bot is configured in relation to the dealer. If the bot and the dealer are under the control of the same programme, then the person does not stand a chance as the system will be biased towards the house, jujst like any electronic game. However, if the bot and dealer are controlled separately you may have more of a chance.

     
  30-Sep-12, 19:46   #14
  0 
Macubaas 
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 6668
Frankly so far i've never heard of a bot that could be set to play HU but anything is possible actually...

To be honest i think a bot would be a lot more efficient playing on regular tables and not HU. I think HU he will lose simply because you can bluff him a lot!

     
  30-Sep-12, 21:50   #15
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by WinAllDay:
although making reads on a bot should be a lot easier because it is programmed to treat situations exactly the same way each time it gets that situation.


This is a massive misconception, a well-programmed bot would definitely handle the same situation in different ways. It's not hard.

     
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