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  25-Mar-13, 18:16   #1
in position against loose player with a flush draw post flop. 0 
QueenMatilda 
Joined: Mar '13
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 13
ok, i'm having trouble determining how to play a hand in this situation that im about to descirbe in long large fielded mtts.

situation
blinds are about 200-400. I have about 7500 chips. He The player to my right is very loose and aggressive as hes trying to build a stack and get ahead of the curve. He has about 14k in chips I get a hand ranging from A2-A9 suited. He is the only player raising and c-betting any two cards playing very loose. I call the raise and the flop comes.

lets say I have A8c. flop is 4c qc 8s. He c-bets 50% of the pot just like he has done already making the pot around 3800 1200 to call. about 15% of my stack. now going all in is high risk but against a loose player he could call with any q or any piar bigger than an 8 and get lucky.

am i wrong to be playing these pots in the first place. sometimes i call the c-bet and then end up losing 33% of my stack chasing the flush draw and then kick myself for getting into this with a loose player.

Edited by QueenMatilda (Monday, March 25, 2013 @ 18:20 GMT)


     
  25-Mar-13, 19:38   #2
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Whether you choose to play these hands preflop I would say is a personal call. It's 1000 chips to a pot of 1600 so it's not a big commitment preflop, it leaves you with a playable stack, it's good odds against a loose player. I wouldn't be raising preflop certainly but you are relying on your post flop skills, you need to know which flops to leave and which to stab at. You should for instance fold to a c-bet on a flop with A rag rag if you don't hit two pair.

Having made the call preflop you must be prepared to play dangerously. You cannot hope to hit a flush or two pair. You must be prepared to lose your stack for the chance to double up. You cannot go up against an aggressive player expecting an easy time on the flop. So if you would rather wait for easier spots don't play these hands, there's plenty of tight players who are far more selective of starting hands who go on to win.

Now, having reached this flop I think you must shove. The pot is 3800, you have 6500 back. A raise would leave 5300 to call so you've got fold equity. No worry of hitting a blank turn. And against a pair of queens you are actually favourite btw. So an easy shove.

     
  26-Mar-13, 04:28   #3
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 2121
In this exemple, the fact that you hit mid pair as well as the nut flush draw makes the decision very easy. It's almost a dream flop. Shoving is definetly the best move here most of the time as it gives you 2 chances to win the pot. But you could also just call, hopefully improve on the turn and there's a good chance he's gonna keep giving you chips. But I don't recommend doing this unless you think your pair of 8 has him beat.

If you only have 1 overcard and the nut flush draw (no pair), then it's a lot more tricky. You know you're behind if he has a pair, not by much but still... So you can still shove or call, but it really depends on what you think your opponent has. Personally, I would have no problem shoving a nut flush draw in a similar situation because I don't think the loose player is gonna call the shove unless he has atleast top pair with a good kicker, unless he's a donk of course. (notice there's a big difference between a loose agressive player and a donk Blink )

     
  26-Mar-13, 09:32   #4
  0 
thefly131 
Joined: Jun '10
Location: Belgium
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1346
Posted by awood88:
Whether you choose to play these hands preflop I would say is a personal call. It's 1000 chips to a pot of 1600 so it's not a big commitment preflop, it leaves you with a playable stack, it's good odds against a loose player. I wouldn't be raising preflop certainly but you are relying on your post flop skills, you need to know which flops to leave and which to stab at. You should for instance fold to a c-bet on a flop with A rag rag if you don't hit two pair.

Having made the call preflop you must be prepared to play dangerously. You cannot hope to hit a flush or two pair. You must be prepared to lose your stack for the chance to double up. You cannot go up against an aggressive player expecting an easy time on the flop. So if you would rather wait for easier spots don't play these hands, there's plenty of tight players who are far more selective of starting hands who go on to win.

Now, having reached this flop I think you must shove. The pot is 3800, you have 6500 back. A raise would leave 5300 to call so you've got fold equity. No worry of hitting a blank turn. And against a pair of queens you are actually favourite btw. So an easy shove.


I totally agree with awood here

remarks : playing cards like A8c is tricky (personnally I like to be the raiser instead of the caller)

So I rather not make a call with A8c (vs a loose player I would rather 3-bet, if he s folded vs 3-bets before)

middle pair and nutflushdraw ---> defenitely shove


     
  26-Mar-13, 10:53   #5
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by awood88:
Whether you choose to play these hands preflop I would say is a personal call. It's 1000 chips to a pot of 1600 so it's not a big commitment preflop, it leaves you with a playable stack, it's good odds against a loose player. I wouldn't be raising preflop certainly but you are relying on your post flop skills, you need to know which flops to leave and which to stab at. You should for instance fold to a c-bet on a flop with A rag rag if you don't hit two pair.

Having made the call preflop you must be prepared to play dangerously. You cannot hope to hit a flush or two pair. You must be prepared to lose your stack for the chance to double up. You cannot go up against an aggressive player expecting an easy time on the flop. So if you would rather wait for easier spots don't play these hands, there's plenty of tight players who are far more selective of starting hands who go on to win.

Now, having reached this flop I think you must shove. The pot is 3800, you have 6500 back. A raise would leave 5300 to call so you've got fold equity. No worry of hitting a blank turn. And against a pair of queens you are actually favourite btw. So an easy shove.


I agree with this 100%



Playing against loose-aggressive sorts you need to be prepared to go all the way.. Trying to see lots of flops and just passively calling and folding if you don't hit will just bleed away your stack..Either player extremely tight against these players, you can often beat the bad loose players like this.. If they're a good LAG though, they'll know when you're trapping them and not pay you off. Alternatively you can play their style back at them, but you need to have the balls to play high risk situations.. For example if you decide to play this particular hand, then you MUST shove the flop.. just calling against a loose player like this, hoping to it, is awful and a massive leak.

     
  26-Mar-13, 11:48   #6
  0 
pokkerimees 
Joined: Oct '08
Location: Estonia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 384
Im not good poker player, but lets put it this way - you called raise with suited Ax. You did hit your flushdraw + you paired something. What more could you expect from hand like this - 3 clubs on flop or full house, huh?
Push all inn or dont call raises with those hands, thats my way.

     
  26-Mar-13, 13:24   #7
  0 
xdomagojx 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Croatia
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 399
Posted by pokkerimees:
Im not good poker player, but lets put it this way - you called raise with suited Ax. You did hit your flushdraw + you paired something. What more could you expect from hand like this - 3 clubs on flop or full house, huh?
Push all inn or dont call raises with those hands, thats my way.


Pretty much says it all...

     
  26-Mar-13, 14:00   #8
  0 
Fakiry 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4764
I decided to write this first sentence immediately after reading only the title. As for that, my move would be insta all-in. If he's short and we have a great chance to elliminate him, there's no need for us to give him more time to think about what he should do, the better we have to do is to put pressure on him.
Now that i read the rest of the thread, i have to say that probably this isn't the best to do when playing large fielded MTT's (maybe that's why i'm elliminated so soon).

     
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