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  31-Jan-14, 00:13   #1
Questions about live play 0 
hooley99 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 63
Hi All,

I was playing a MTT with some friends earlier and ended up having a huge argument over a couple hands. The scenarios are as follows?

1. Blinds are 2/4K, and the action folds to me in the small blind. I call 4k thinking that the big blind is all in, when in fact he has 4100 in chips. Because I thought he was all in, I immediately turn over my hole cards before he had chance to act. What should happen in this situation?

2. Post flop, a player deliberately`acts out of turn, saying he's folding with 2 players to act behind him. He is in fact holding a set of jacks and is trying to solicit a bet. What is the rule in this situation?

Thanks in advance.

     
  1-Feb-14, 03:53   #2
  0 
Jibberish 

Joined: May '11
Location: Canada
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 979
1. you can be forced to play with your hand up or sometimes your hand can be considered dead, depends on where you are playing

2. that is a very shady character to do something like that but i'm fairly certain that he has to fold

     
  1-Feb-14, 04:58   #3
  +1 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
This is the problem with home games, these rules aren't set in stone, the rules of poker only really dictate the hand-rankings and basic order of play.. These 'higher rules' are more a matter of etiquette and it's largely the discretion of a venue as to how they're enforced.

That said, these sorts of situations are fairly common and if you were to look around to how most venues treat these kinds of plays you can probably reach an agreement based on the consensus of enough live venues.

number 1 is pretty straight forward: So long as you didn't slide your hand into the much, it's usually considered live - so, given 4100 chips and 4000 chips is much the same, it's more or less still going to play out as all in.. That said - your opponent can still just check and certainly doesn't have to turn his hand up.. but it is pretty moot- since no matter what the flop is, he would be stupid to fold his last 100 chips, even knowing you have the best hand.. about the only situation he should fold his last 100 on the flop is if you literally flop the stone cold nuts and he can't improve to a better hand. in which case he can fold and keep his last 100.

2 is a lot more complicated - generally when somebody folds they must muck their hand (it's illegal to keep your folded hand in front of you) so his move shouldn't really be able to happen.. If he acts as though he honestly thinks it is his turn and pushes his hand towards the middle/muck and says he folds, then his hand is fucking dead and there is no way he can come back in to the hand, especially if he has to reach forward and drag his cards back.

However- if he keeps his cards by his side and casually says to someone he is going to fold on his turn.. then that is just being a bit of a dickhead, but he can do what he wants on his turn.

But - this scenario is more likely - if he has kept his cards with him and declared (as though it was his turn) that he folds - then generally when someone acts out of turn there's two options: either they're held to what they said they were going to do, or they're only allowed to check/call. There's pretty much no situation where he would be allowed to raise after declaring out of turn his hands are folded.. The ruling should always be either his hand is mucked/dead OR he can't raise the action, only check or call.

That said - it's a fucking dumb move anyway, it pretty much shows your hand anyway.

------------
I think for these kind of disputes in a home game, it's probably best to agree on a third party - and agree to go with whatever they rule - and you only don't tell the third party which people were involved, that way the can't be biased.

Edited by jessthehuman (Saturday, February 01, 2014 @ 05:17 GMT)


     
  2-Feb-14, 05:03   #4
  0 
hooley99 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 63
Thanks for the info guys.

It's the first situation I am more interested in tbh, because my opponent insisted my hand was dead and took down the pot for 8K. I did go on to win though, so I guess I'll just have to settle for that.

     
  2-Feb-14, 05:31   #5
  0 
Jibberish 

Joined: May '11
Location: Canada
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 979
just curious but were you playing in a home game?

     
  2-Feb-14, 06:05   #6
  0 
hooley99 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Indonesia
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 63
Posted by Jibberish:
just curious but were you playing in a home game?

yeah, we had 18 players on 2 tables.

     
  2-Feb-14, 10:00   #7
  0 
damosk 
Joined: Feb '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 4867
The advice in this thread is very good and should be taken up...however in the best traditions of one games, (as recently discussed in here) the best way to resolve disputes in home games is to turn up packed with a six shooter and determine the issue by being fastest on the draw!

     
  2-Feb-14, 12:58   #8
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
Posted by damosk:
the best way to resolve disputes in home games is to turn up packed with a six shooter and determine the issue by being fastest on the draw!



If you really feel that way, make sure you don't ever get into a gunslinging match against this guy:


     
  2-Feb-14, 13:04   #9
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8643
whenever in doubt stick to simple logic:

1. you admitted yourself that you made a mistake/misjudgment - so if you made a mistake you "have to pay for it". since big blind has yet to act- he can do whatever he decides, doesn't matter if you showed your cards.

2. if someone says he folds = he must fold. simple and easy, no excuses, no bullsh1t.

     
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