Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
I really cannot believe in what bunch of BS Pokerstars turned into. I saw less action flops on officially and verified rigged sites then on Pokerstars. Poker office stats are so off average that it is hard not to say that there is something wrong here. Every pockets from 1st and 2nd group are by at least 1/3 off in negative direction, at least. Total crap pockets are same amount minimum in positive direction. Here comes interesting part, with those 1st group hands winning percentage is average 25%. Now non stats verified impressions. Pokerstars is monument to action flop theory. How many times do you see all people in the hand at flop hitting and usually total underdog wins. Unbelievable site it has become. Freerolls only and when I have extra time because it is not worth it got bubbled out with AKs, AQs AJs, pocket pair, usually it goes like this, if its A-something I miss both my cards and underdog wins by hitting his rag, if i have pocket pair like JJ, 1010 then it is AKQ suited flop, or something similar but always better pairs or flushes. I even start joking with people that I`m scared I will get AA. I really don`t understand how they gather 100K+ people on site. They were fishy when they were Kahnawake licensees but this is now Jokestars, not Jokerstars but Jokestars, since they changed to Isle of Man commission. When compared to game fairness one can expect from poker room Pokerstars is, by my opinion, side by side with Everleaf gaming network (ex Poker4ever) if not even worse.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6787
On how many hands are your experiences based on? S**t happens in poker, and AK is only 2 to 1 to win against 72. So you will lose a fair amount of hands with it , even if the opponent has total crap.
After their handlings of the Absolut Poker and Ultimate Bet scandals is moving away from Kahnawake a good sign. This license is truly a joke.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6787
I guess you know that 4000 hands is close to nothing. You would get aces less then 20 times. Come back and complain if you have 100.000 or more hands, and your distribution of good hands is far of.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
Try only twice, aces are so of charts that it is not even close. Look I know what downswings are but hands there are so unrealistic these few days I`ve been playing there that it really can set someone off.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: Australia
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1158
nature of the beast,you cant always win,whick sux.true sites do go after players esspecialy if youve had a good run,moneys gotta flow around tables,but after 4000 hands i think you need a break.turn ya com off and reset your mind.to much poker is a bad thing sometimes.recharge.youll play better.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 5
4000 hands is such a teeney sample it is unbelievable. You cannot even think about starting to call a site rigged until you have at least 1,000,000 hands that are miles out from the expected results.
You appear to have just hit negative variance for the first time. Grind it out.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
I didnt won anything I`m down but that would not be bad at all if I did not get action flopped with 3+ people hitting the flop and such hands. 4000+ hands in few days is not much at all, on the other hand I dont multitable unless I`m deep in tournament and another is starting or it is a FL tournament which allows me to play on the side. If table is too slow I rather move to the next one then opening another table. Luckily when I noticed those action flops I had "strength" to play with bankroll management guidelines so low that this could last for quite some time and I wouldnt be bankrupt. To be exact I divided those 3-5% for SnG by 4 and 1-1.5 for MTT by 3, cash games are Limit only so I dont get big suckout with those flops. I did not put this post just because I am losing money, I can keep losing for very long time, but because it is ridiculous how many action flops there are. Between last and this post I was playing FL Omaha H/L freeroll, after 12 hours best solution, and I have healthy stack and get dealt K-3-9-10 double suited and I am BB, i think i was not sure, and action goes like this preflop 4 players in caped pot and I call thinking they are all going for low so low is out and I have average possibly good hand if i`m right. And I was right, flop comes KKQ, rainbow i think, i`m first to act and I push, 2 pl call, 3 reraise, 4th fold, so it is logical to think that raiser either have AA or QQ(not likely) with low cards, and 1 other folds 1 calls so he is probably chasing another pocket pair or stupid straight draw with flush draw, turn comes 9, Ok i don`t have the nuts but since i got raised only by one player I am still pushing because I am confident that he holds AA, other guy just folds after reraise and betting is capped again. Guess what river brought, 4th ace from the deck and he gets his A`s over K`s boat. If he got that ace in beginning I would not say a word, but I lead the way, or someone else doesnt matter since i play only one table I can watch hands being played, till that river and guess what river brings single cards from the deck. These are the hands I am talking about. I managed to get up again but finally got totally crippled by straight flush when i was holding another full house, 9` o 8`s. I don`t have to play 100K hands because I really don`t care about starting hands stats what comes more often, I have similar amounts won with mediocre and strong cards so it is not that I am playing 1st group only, but these action flops really makes me nervous. It is not only one or who knows how many poker sessions in negative balance but the fact where it is happening, on biggest poker room there is, one would think that they don`t have to do these kind of things in those quantities. Up to this moment most action flops i`ve seen was on FL HE tables at Everest they are unbelievable, then Everleaf NL 10seaters followed by Merge network specially on limit tables but on NL too and then iPoker in NL HE tournaments. At all these site I usually play 1 table only so I am watching others get action flopped too. I am more upset because I am losing confidence in online poker in whole. That could be the real reason behind this post. I don`t know, morning is smarter than evening, or something like that since its noon and I am going to sleep now.
Joined: Jun '08
Location: Italy
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 411
Try to think man: if Pokerstars was rigged there wouldn't be any pro playing there since it would be impossibile to show a profit... but the real world is different and i picked Pokerstars as my favourite poker room to play as a semipro and i'm happy having done it. Pokerstars deal milions of hands per day so there can't be any fair study that shows ps is rigged basing its considerations on 4000 hands
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Brazil
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1788
Hey Predo, nice post, and since you're talking about them AA's, I've just lost AA vs. KK on stars, but no complaints, the site has been great to me recently. Keep on investigating. Take care my friend...
4k hands say nothing..... u need at least 100k oder better 1mil to atleast make a rough statement on the site. if you dont have them, it's your ol' friend, the variance aka downswing
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
You just don`t get it, I am following odds and I don`t need 100K hand or 1M hands to see that some sites are action flop paradises. Do you play at Pokerstars? Go through your worst beats or if you play tournaments only go through last hands that got you kicked out or the ones that crippled you. How can you say it is odds when guy who has 1xBB left doubles up 4 times on my strong cards with crap in 4 hands. And finally gets me out of the tourney. You say it is downswing I have been kicked out so many times with pairs against pairs that I don`t need 1M hands to see that something is going on. What are the odds that 2 shortstacks on table and one big stack gets pocket pairs and big stack wins. Now imagine that situation, same every time, several times happening in few days, it has been 6 days now since Ive been playing there actively. Happened in both single table SnG`s and MTT`s, real one not those 0.10 SnG`s. You`re missing the point Sockrates and got stuck with getting pocket odds and I am mostly furious here about action flops and "convenient" drop outs from tournaments near the bubble and while being shortstacked. I have been playing on Pokerstars before and it was my first poker room I played but distanced myself from it because of "riverstars" and "jokerstars" thing also because most of my friends played there and I don`t like poker getting between people. Now I returned to play, partially because I saw that there is always minimum of 50K players on site and because one of my friends told me that it is easy to get ITM in those 0.10 sng`s. I watched my friend play in MTT`s before and now I know why he gets into money most of the time on Pokerstars, he is overbetting small pocket pairs, middle connectors and gets lucky most of the time. I put this theory to test by registering to one of weekly round freerolls and played like a real fish donk maniac, chasing runners and getting into raised pots with junk even 7-2off, really did not care, and before you know it i was chip leader finally i did get kicked out but i really played recklessly going allin with absolutely nothing just because I have someone covered few times over. As I write this post I got called by guy holding J - 3 and board is K - Q - 2 - A and I am holding A - 4 I am last to act and I raise half a pot on turn to get called by A-8off(no clubs) and that J-3off guy guess what was the river 4 . You tell me how does this qualifies for normal hand. Poker stars is rewarding those donks big time. Quotes time
Try to think man: if Pokerstars was rigged there wouldn't be any pro playing there since it would be impossibile to show a profit
And all those pro`s on UB are losing money? We all know what is going on at UB. If you don`t, try google for UB scandal and search for multiple accounts by those poker pro`s and not so pro`s. UB is big money operation run by former Kahnawake gaming commission grand chief. For millions of hands played all I can say, "i thought the same way too". First tournament I tried when this story began was that 0.10 sng 360 which friend told me about. In first 5-7 hands there were 3x people with pocket AA`s none of them won and stop thinking at this moment "aces dont win all the time" but what are the chances of 3 people getting pocket aces in 7 hands and losing all 3 times. As I said I don`t watch my hands only I see other people get screwed around the same way, so multiply those 4000 hands by 9.
Everyone who thinks that jokerstars is rigged should go and play at an ongame site. THESE are runner runner paradises.
Yeah LOL i was not sure and was tired to check whether is Mansion, RedKings and BWin iPoker or something else but TOTALLY TRUE. I think i made a thread or a post somewhere about Ongame sites. search for entire table sitting out or something in those boundaries. But I did not get screwed that much on Ongame sites like I am here. And I played roughly the same amount hands total on both PS and Ongame sites.
------------ Well since I am trash talking all the time I must say this too. I took some time and watched $30/60 FL tables to see how flops and action is on those limits. Result is VERY GOOD. Best hands win even if someone is chasing, if flush flops, I haven`t seen a single boat coming over that flush, straights stayed that way even with flush draws and such hands. I did not spend too much time so bad beats will probably happen but it is not as close as it is on lower limits. All in all nice good FAIR game of poker. There were some chasers, 2 to be exact, on the table but they got dried out soon by others because there were no suckouts on river. This is not my limit anytime soon on Pokerstars but at least something to hope for and it is not "action flopped" like those low limit tables. To be honest with you people i was so desperate that I was starting to consider quitting online gambling because of these things. It gets frustrating to calculate your odds with added variables such as is it bubble time will RNG try to knock me out, or I played tight and was not bluffing will it try to set me up with some strong pockets and get me sucked out in the end. In SnG`s, how long does this tournament has been running for is it over average time for that site and such. Keep your eyes on those variable people and I know it is sweet when you get the cherry from the top but to me that cherry has a bitter taste and I don`t want it even when it is free.
Joined: Jun '08
Location: Italy
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 411
Posted by sokrates: 4k hands say nothing..... u need at least 100k oder better 1mil to atleast make a rough statement on the site. if you dont have them, it's your ol' friend, the variance aka downswing
100 000 hands are nothing as well as 4 000 for a site that deals like 10 milions hands per day! a 100 000 hands study would be based on the 0,1% of the hands dealt in one day.... who would pay attention to such a small swing ?
Joined: Oct '07
Location: Australia
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 405
are you sure man its just a bad luck run everybody has them sometimes you get absolutely no good hands on a site for a very long time i really hate that too
Joined: May '08
Location: United States
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 6
Jokerstars tried the same s**t on me, i told them i was going to start 20 websites a week to educate people on the way they play.Giving you must call and raise hands, only to be beaten by the (bot) underdog. Just imagin the money they are making with us paying to play there then have absolutly no chance at winning the big money. With the money they have already made that site is a monster, and we have no legal way to fight them (they could afford to tie it up in court for years). So i just stop playing all togeather, back to home town game, and back on top. SUCK IT POKERSTARS TAKE CARE DUDE, AND KEEP SPREADING THE WORD.
Joined: May '08
Location: Argentina
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 54
somebody use setometer software? ------------------------------------------------------- You got know when to hold'em know when to foldem know when to walk away know when to run
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
I think you right Predobar, iv been there a while now, and it is most deffently a action flop site, just too many times iv lost with KK and AA, to a paired flop, reguardless of raises, if I am up aginst some one, or vice versa, some 1 will hit set or 2 pair on flop or draws I noticed this a while back but just put it down to "thats poker", I like to watch the big players and have also noticed that its not quite the same with "action flop", there, but in fairness most pots are won pre-flop. I have done OK on pokerstars, and i enjoy playing there, never short of finding a table, so am not complaing bcos im losing, but odds on this site just dont work. I dont know if its rigged, but things just dont seam right. strange as it sounds, my weak points in poker become strong there and that goes the outher way,
- 3 
and board is K 
Jokerstars tried the same s**t on me, i told them i was going to start 20 websites a week to educate people on the way they play.Giving you must call and raise hands, only to be beaten by the (bot) underdog. Just imagin the money they are making with us paying to play there then have absolutly no chance at winning the big money. With the money they have already made that site is a monster, and we have no legal way to fight them (they could afford to tie it up in court for years). So i just stop playing all togeather, back to home town game, and back on top. SUCK IT POKERSTARS 
TAKE CARE DUDE, AND KEEP SPREADING THE WORD.
