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  3-Apr-15, 19:55   #1
KK vs 97 analized +2 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
My mentor/coach since few days ago Smile and great poker pro Alec Torelli accepted to analyze my recent hand that took me form going deep int o BIGGER 27$ last weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4stzayzspM
Still can not believe that this guy was paying all those raises with air...

     
  3-Apr-15, 20:06   #2
  +1 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 1880
lol I would've shoved pre flop no doubt about it ^^ But then everything would've been standard, so nothing to analyze there Blink

Also the flop bet seems too small to me. But it gives other guy room to bluff... Still, pretty risky play, you're basically giving him free cards to suck out on you if he takes a passive line. (and he did)

Edited by TheMachineQC (Friday, April 03, 2015 @ 20:11 GMT)


     
  3-Apr-15, 20:15   #3
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
Posted by TheMachineQC:
lol I would've shoved pre flop no doubt about it ^^ But then everything would've been standard, so nothing to analyze there Blink

Also the flop bet seems too small to me. But it gives other guy room to bluff... Still, pretty risky play, you're basically giving him free cards to suck out on you.

exactly, totaly agree with you... and if you shoved after his 4 bet he would 100% fold, and you woldnt be in such tuff situation...And lets say you called, which you did, you should bet flop a lot bigger, maybe even all in... Also you must know how player, that you are against play, does he bluff often from button, or is he tight...

     
  3-Apr-15, 20:51   #4
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 72 (M)
Posts: 3445
Posted by StheP:
Posted by TheMachineQC:
lol I would've shoved pre flop no doubt about it ^^ But then everything would've been standard, so nothing to analyze there Blink

Also the flop bet seems too small to me. But it gives other guy room to bluff... Still, pretty risky play, you're basically giving him free cards to suck out on you.

exactly, totaly agree with you... and if you shoved after his 4 bet he would 100% fold, and you woldnt be in such tuff situation...And lets say you called, which you did, you should bet flop a lot bigger, maybe even all in... Also you must know how player, that you are against play, does he bluff often from button, or is he tight...


I did not look at the analyzed but look at the hand and you both think that a guy that reraised a raise eith 7 9s will fold on a preflop shoved. I really think that you are wrong on this one these kind of guy will never fold its been a joke here that some have no fold button and he is one of them. And after the flop with Q Q on the board you gonna bet more wow are you suicidal. Question Question

     
  3-Apr-15, 21:11   #5
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
I dont think so... He will in that position probably raise with almoust anything... even someone like this would even 4 bet like he did... KK is preaty strong hand, and In almoust evry single time you will be dominating pre flop agaisnt button raiser. So in this case when player on button 4 beted, the worste case with KK is t flat call, because in 100% of the time he will CB after flop... so you got to raise bigger or even put him all in Blink

     
  3-Apr-15, 23:25   #6
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 1880
Obviously if you shove pre flop after the 4bet, you don't necessarly want the guy to fold (unless he has AA but then he won't fold). I would shove there for more than 1 reason but the main reason is to protect your hand. There's a good chance that after the flop you won't have the best hand anymore, and taking down such a big pot pre flop with 0 risk is always good. So I'm happy to take down the pot at this point if he folds, and if he calls I'm happy also no matter if I win or lose the hand. That's why it's considered a standard play in this spot.

BTW, I'm not saying MonoPolygamy's line was a mistake, it wasn't in this case because he got the guy to risk his whole stack with bad odds to win the hand. He knew he was never folding after the flop (QQ8 is a pretty good flop for KK in my opinion), so he did small value bets the whole way to not scare the guy... it was just a very unlucky river. He tried to get max value and it almost worked but there's always more risks that comes with slow playing. Other guy played terribly and got lucky. If he hits nothing on the river he has to fold after putting like 60% of his chips in the pot. Very, very bad play on his part.

------------
Think about it this way Pinotte, you need to have the right mindset to play MTT.

If you shove pre flop, there's all kinds of hands that can call you: all pocket pairs, AJs+ and even random suited connectors like this. All these hands can also fold but you don't control what the other player does, so focus on what you can control: your own actions. The only bad thing that can happen in this situation is to get called by AA on the button... And that would be really unlucky given the position.

If you decide to slow play like Polygamy did, you're giving all these hands a free chance to beat you. But the good thing about this play is you're giving the guy a chance to hit something he could pay you off with or try to bluff you later. It didn't happen in this case because he hit runner runner draws instead but it probably would in most cases.

Edited by TheMachineQC (Friday, April 03, 2015 @ 23:50 GMT)


     
  3-Apr-15, 23:53   #7
  0 
pinotte 
Joined: Jun '13
Location: Canada
Age: 72 (M)
Posts: 3445
WE are on the same page now i am pretty sure that i would have shoved but IMO the result would have been the same. I have seen so many suited maniacs its like they just go on the coma when they are suited and just push on the button. However i dont play this kind of entry fee and did not know they were there too. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

     
  4-Apr-15, 10:20   #8
  0 
StheP 

Joined: Oct '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 26 (M)
Posts: 3026
Posted by TheMachineQC:
Obviously if you shove pre flop after the 4bet, you don't necessarly want the guy to fold (unless he has AA but then he won't fold). I would shove there for more than 1 reason but the main reason is to protect your hand. There's a good chance that after the flop you won't have the best hand anymore, and taking down such a big pot pre flop with 0 risk is always good. So I'm happy to take down the pot at this point if he folds, and if he calls I'm happy also no matter if I win or lose the hand. That's why it's considered a standard play in this spot.

BTW, I'm not saying MonoPolygamy's line was a mistake, it wasn't in this case because he got the guy to risk his whole stack with bad odds to win the hand. He knew he was never folding after the flop (QQ8 is a pretty good flop for KK in my opinion), so he did small value bets the whole way to not scare the guy... it was just a very unlucky river. He tried to get max value and it almost worked but there's always more risks that comes with slow playing. Other guy played terribly and got lucky. If he hits nothing on the river he has to fold after putting like 60% of his chips in the pot. Very, very bad play on his part.

------------
Think about it this way Pinotte, you need to have the right mindset to play MTT.

If you shove pre flop, there's all kinds of hands that can call you: all pocket pairs, AJs+ and even random suited connectors like this. All these hands can also fold but you don't control what the other player does, so focus on what you can control: your own actions. The only bad thing that can happen in this situation is to get called by AA on the button... And that would be really unlucky given the position.

If you decide to slow play like Polygamy did, you're giving all these hands a free chance to beat you. But the good thing about this play is you're giving the guy a chance to hit something he could pay you off with or try to bluff you later. It didn't happen in this case because he hit runner runner draws instead but it probably would in most cases.

we are thinking all the same Thumbs Up

------------
Posted by pinotte:
WE are on the same page now i am pretty sure that i would have shoved but IMO the result would have been the same. I have seen so many suited maniacs its like they just go on the coma when they are suited and just push on the button. However i dont play this kind of entry fee and did not know they were there too. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

pinotte no mater if you win or lose, but that is correct play, that themachine said... Only thing that can beat you preflop is AA... In this case he got unlucky, but that doesnt mean that play was wrong... Thats the same thing when you have rockets, and someone shove preflop... What would you do fold?

Edited by StheP (Saturday, April 04, 2015 @ 10:24 GMT)


     
  4-Apr-15, 14:57   #9
  0 
Heskor 
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 25 (M)
Posts: 2659
Hmm good post, those hand can make you money if played right also glad you shared your thoughts and your coach thoughts on this hand always helpful to read about what you are thinking on this hand as sometimes what you think is happening is not te same when the other person is thinking lol, anyway good luck at the tables hope you have fun and do make more money, cheers peace out guys have fun and good luck!

     
  4-Apr-15, 21:56   #10
  +1 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
Posted by StheP:
I dont think so... He will in that position probably raise with almoust anything... even someone like this would even 4 bet like he did... KK is preaty strong hand, and In almoust evry single time you will be dominating pre flop agaisnt button raiser. So in this case when player on button 4 beted, the worste case with KK is t flat call, because in 100% of the time he will CB after flop... so you got to raise bigger or even put him all in Blink


All what you wrote is exactly what i wanted to do. I WANTED HIM to GET INTO HAND. I WANTED 30K, not what was on the table. That is the key moment in the tournament . With 70K at that moment (almost bubble) I would be a chip leader and really comfortable with my hand selection to keep my self deep.
I would shove like a year ago. But this is ABC poker in my opinion. Not saying it is bad, but one can be more successful with a bit more strategy than that.

     
  5-Apr-15, 01:12   #11
  0 
TheMachineQC 

Joined: Apr '10
Location: Canada
Age: 27 (M)
Posts: 1880
Not saying it's bad either, but it IS a lot more risky than the standard play. And surely you are aware of that. Personally in such situations, I prefer 100% chance to win the hand pre flop every single time (if guy folds), and about 90-95% chance to have the best hand if he decides to call... (I think you're not getting called unless guy has AK or 88+ so that's about 10 hands/200)

Runner runner draws aren't the only threats... If he has a small pocket pair and hits the flop, or hits 2 pair on the flop, you're left with 8BB almost every single time. And you know you're putting yourself in a spot where you can't fold. Also, what would you do if flop comes ace high? You just give up the pot if he decides to rep it? What if he shoves on the flop and shows QJs type of hand? It's all part of the risk that comes with trying to get max value.

If the guy was any good he would've folded or made a move over the top on the flop. Why just call there? I can't believe he's floating here with no draw no pair... And when he calls on the flop, why not just shove on the turn? Clearly he's committed (and retarded for calling on the flop) at this point. There is so many different lines you could've taken in this hand. You could've check/raised the flop instead of leading out too...

So all Im saying is, this is not ABC at all. It's slow playing! It's the opposite of ABC. But don't get me wrong, I do this type of play too. ^^ I wonder what the guy would've done if the river came a deuce... lol

Better luck next time! It was definetly a good spot to slow play against an agressive guy on the button. You did reel the fish in very nicely there Worship

     
  5-Apr-15, 06:59   #12
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 6197
For what i see, i wud have shoved after his reraise preflop.
As i see the hand i think he wud call so the outcome wud have been the same problably.
Didnt listen to the comment of Torelli, he thinks its played fine like this?
Or he thinks its best to go allin after reraise oponent?

     
  5-Apr-15, 11:04   #13
  0 
stevieboy4 
Joined: Feb '15
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 12
spot on,IMO,,esp @that stage in tourney

     
  5-Apr-15, 11:22   #14
  0 
MonoPolygamy 

Joined: Apr '14
Location: Serbia
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 145
Posted by TheMachineQC:


So all Im saying is, this is not ABC at all. It's slow playing! It's the opposite of ABC. But don't get me wrong, I do this type of play too. ^^ I wonder what the guy would've done if the river came a deuce... lol

Better luck next time! It was definetly a good spot to slow play against an agressive guy on the button. You did reel the fish in very nicely there Worship

Exactly what i meant. I would and I will playt again like this next time. The odds were ata any single point of the hand 1:10.

     
  6-Apr-15, 12:34   #15
  0 
stevieboy4 
Joined: Feb '15
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 12
Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

     
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