Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 9
What would you say is the ruling on this?
Not long ago in a home game I rivered a full house. It was my action and I pushed all-in hoping to get a call. The other player in the hand had called me all the way down to that point. I felt he was strong and would probably call my all-in bet. He sat and thought for a little bit then said, "Alright, What the hell!" I took this for a call so I turned my cards over and revealed my boat. When he saw my hand he then said "I fold". He argued that he never verbally said " I call" nor did he push chips into the pot. I argued that he verbalized intent to call. I likened this to pushing a stack of chips in the pot then bringing half of them back with your hand on its return. I feel that he had every intention of calling until he saw my hand then felt he could talk his way into saving himself the chips.
Does anyone know how this would rule in a casino game?
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 51 (F)
Posts: 581
i believe this actually happened to Phil Helmuth in the WSOP. The guy dupped PHil in thinking he was calling, Phil in turn flips over his cards. The guy folds. Its a dirty play but if I remember right the guy who dupped Phil ended up having the ruling go his way.
Thats a dirty play and if I was there I wouldnt allow it, but I believe it might be allowed
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1170
the rules do state that if his chips wasnt pushed over the line he hasnt bet so you should have held on for a moment longer till thye had then there would have been no way he could have had any kind of a case to say he didnt call sorry mate but thats how it goes
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Canada
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 1354
hahah yea i do actually but in this situation its a little grey... a situation similar to this happend to my friend in a real live casino where the head manager had to come down and finish the hand and remove him from the casino....
he was playing at a table, he was BB every1 folds... sb raises all in... he had some stupid s**tty hand and says " hahah (laughs) all in? yea right!!" and threw his cards away...
now after this the SB (who went all in) made a huge fuss "he said 'all in' he said 'all in'" so eventually the manager came down and informed us that because he said those words all in he had to play it that way.. so obvioulsy his s**t hand didnt bust the guys AA's and lost his money and was removed from the casino..
so im pretty sure he implied it so he had to finish it off that way
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Canada
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 2698
Interesting. "Alright, What the hell!" doesn't mean I call. Its a dirty play. I would ask him, "did you call"? Or not say anything until his chips are past the line.
I also seen on WPT, asian guy asked a question and said okay, "I call it". That was dirty play too and manager made him call.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1170
think thats the sporting thing to do but like i said in casinoes if the chips dont pass the line there not in the middle so not part of the pot thats one good thing tho with internet poker we will never see this problem hahaha
yeah that is a real dirty, i think if someone voices there intention to call then it is a call, but hopefully this is a lesson you only have to learn once and next time you dont flop over your cards so quick.
and hopefully all of us learn this lesson from your misfortune.
Joined: Oct '07
Location: Philippines
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 1443
dirty cheap trick but the best way to solve this kind of problems is to get the head manager of the casino and let him decide as he is the "rule" in there. you can also try to ask for surveillance tapes for proof
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1170
they got the manager the decission went against them which is abit unfair really oh well he knows not to use that casino again or play the same person ever again either
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Ireland
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 136
He angleshot you. It is your responsibility to make sure the action is final before tabling your cards. You should realise this. If you want to get really technical he hasn't moved his chips over the line or said call.
On the other hand he has voiced an intention to call. As was mentioned before you are in a grey area, but from experience playing live, with these rulings constantly being called for, you will lose out, and the villain will not have to call. Its very harsh but lifes like that. You just have to protect yourself.
Villain here has angleshot you, and it is really poor form, and a cheap trick, but not against the rules. It is absolutely terible etiquette though.
In future, just remember always to make sure he has called and put his chips in before exposing your hand. If you don't you will leave yourself open to cheap tricks like this, which happen more than you may think.
I got done out of €500 in similar fashion one night, and have been very careful about this ever since. I hope you will be too because it is one of the most horrible things that can happen at poker table. Unlucky.
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United States
Age: 51 (F)
Posts: 581
Posted by Im2good4u: dirty cheap trick but the best way to solve this kind of problems is to get the head manager of the casino and let him decide as he is the "rule" in there. you can also try to ask for surveillance tapes for proof
Well he was at his house playing when this happened.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Canada
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 1354
haaha could you guys imagine.. you flop the nuts on the flop go all in the guys fake calls you.. you get the manager and makes him play out the hand and he turns and rivers you and you loose all your money hahhaha how shitty would that be?
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Brazil
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 1788
Unfortunately this is allowed. I think somehow it is good that people now know about this, eventually we will be able to detect this kind of cheap trick and just counter attack it. The pro´s do it all the time, but they are not so direct about it, they ask questions instead, play around a bit with the psychology of the opponent; Daniel Negreanu is a perfect example of this, he does not play dirty, but he sure knows how to show intent with questions or mental verbalizations.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: New Zealand
Age: 62 (M)
Posts: 71
The rule is simple. If the player says, " I call" or "Call" or " I'm all in ", or just "All in". Then he , or she, has deemed to have made a verbal contract and has to stand by that statement. The same applies if the player pushes their chips over the line. Make any of the above statements or take the above action and they are committed. As tommygune pointed out, the onus was on you to clarify the situation. You should never turn your cards over until you are sure the hand is dead or your opponent has completed any actions they are going to make. You got done.
